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 Ron Bee!

Quote:
The emblems of the Spirit most used in scriptures are flowing water, driving wind and consuming fire



that is a GOOD Word!! I'm going to pray that be buried in my heart!!

a "che" huh?

(I wanna come to Blighty and hold some prayer meetings.....actually to go to the Hebrides and do that...but sleepy ole Reading would be ok...maybe we could go to Liverpool, and deprogram John Scotland in the Name of Jesus!)

I'm s'posed to be typing a letter, but I cant stop reading this thread.

 2005/2/28 19:12
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3228
Texas

 Re: Ron Bee!

The key to understanding Fivefold Ministry is function or purpose and not title… titles exist to describe function


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2005/2/28 20:35Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Demonstrative Gospel

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and wisdom. Here is one unifying theme that occurs to me while considering everyones words.

I believe the Church is realizing that a didactic gospel needs to be replaced with a demonstrative gospel. In other words...The Word must become flesh, and dwell among men, so that they can see His glory.

Through the Apostolic Reformation, Pentacostal and Charismatic churches, we are wanting to see manifest power of God in the gifts and five-fold offices as recorded in Acts. We need those moments where the spoken word is fused with the spirit of God in such a way that ears and eyes are opened. This annointing accompanied with revelatory signs moves the gospel beyond mere propositional knowledge into prophetic knowledge.

The Emergent Church is an admission that faith by simple doctrinal agreement is weak and hard to connect to. Our modern confession relies too much on the cognitive and not enough on the community. With our Emergent brothers and sisters we are not only building bridges to each other, but also to those ancient ones who have gone before us. When we combine our own music with hymns, our own faith with creeds, our own bible reflection with iconic painting, we are realizing that our church is that same church that was worshipping in the catacombs and synagogues.

Speaking of symbols, I guess that is the ultimate motivation for the Churchless Christians. We want our lives to be symbols that do not represent men, but instead convey Jesus..."Come you who have no money and buy food..." as opposed to symbols of wealth and worldliness. With our churchless bothers and sisters we are jealously gaurding the integrity of the Gospel. "The Word became flesh...not flash!"

Just some more kindling for the flames of discussion...

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/2/28 22:24Profile
sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37087
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Ratt-a-tatta-tat tat groovy Jazz Cat. I'm envisioning sit-ins with flowers, tea, and nylon string acoustic guitar singalongs.


:-? no comment.

Quote:
Just my humble opinion but I feel that all these movements are the result of people in traditional church tired of a powerless bride that has become a shell of her former self.


Thank you brother Mike (compton) for your posts about this matter. You have clearly given some large Charismatic movements for our knoweldge and purusal. Personally I think the 3 you have mentioned really aren't the choices for the true apostolic church in our day or the movement that God is going to use for revival. I would say unreseverdly that in most of those 3 groups there is so much flippant and false doctrine and ideas sadly. Even though they have a form of what is apostolic and also talk about revival but that does not make it the genuine article.

One big decision that we have to make is are we going to base what we are looking for in the apostolic church on the Scriptures alone or not. Unfortunalty the authority and solid foundation of scriptures is misued and disregarded or twisted in some of these movements.

I am studying at Calvary Chapel Bible School right now and I have to say its very biblical and very close to something like the original church. I could see God using this movement to spark a revival in USA and this world more then other unstable movements. But we have to remember that it is not going to be movements, principles, but rather a MAN that God is going to use to start a revival.

I am not trying to disagree with everything you are saying brother and it is good to look into these things but we have to no look for the "Church" that is going to bring revival but rather let God make "Us" the people who He will use. I like brother Hulsey's comment that he wants to be part of the remenant movement, I do to! nomatter what denomination or movement let us join into what God is doing.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2005/2/28 22:41Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: revival

Thanks Sermonindex for your kind and respectful tone.

As a point of clarification, only the Apostolic Reformation could be considered Charismatic in flavor, while the others seems to cross denominational borders.

I would like to postulate something that has been eating away at me. Maybe I'm holding my head up here for target practice but here I go.

I myself am like many believers...kind of a denominational mutt with DNA from several Godly ancestors. This DNA includes Augustine, Luther, Wesley, Carmichael, Spurgeon, Bonhoeffer, Tozer, Packer, Chambers and many others.

So I hope my point here wasn't to define the right movement. Nor was I trying to put forth a critique of "traditional churches." I attend a healthy mainline denominational church because it has a passion for the lost.

After years of mastering purist doctrinal systems and schools of Christianity, I am asking the question...can Christians connect with each other on a different level? Maybe not---since each denomination or school seems to be rooted in a rejection of the other.

I have shelves full of the best books and writing by the Church's most influencial writers. The internet let's me listen to sermons from all over the world. The only thing they all have in common is a simple orthodox creed and a profound devotion to Jesus. Take those similarities away and Finney, Edwards, and Augustine might as well be espousing different religions. They simply were not convinced of the same things but I am convinced they were the same thing; great Christians.

Our western gospel is too didactic. Somehow we need to find ways to hold onto our deep convictions while findiing fellowship with other devoted believers. Is there a revival without crossing denominational boundaries? We say that revival begins when we repent of our sins. Do we really know what that means for a globe where all the church is interconnected? What is holy living in the 21st century? Wouldn't true repentance would lead to radically reshifting material resources to the poor, the naked and persecuted that belong to Christ. May that day come!

Quote:
But we have to remember that it is not going to be movements, principles, but rather a MAN that God is going to use to start a revival.



You are convinced that a man is coming to bring revival. How can that be possible? If he comes as a holiness preacher the baptists will reject him, and if he comes as a pentacostal then the charismatics will look down on him. If he comes from the third world, the northern hemisphere will not clothe and feed him. If he comes from the east, then the west will debate theology with him.

The church has always been global but now we are connected. It is because I share your deep hope for spiritual fire that I want to tear down every idol that stands in the way. Perhaps our mythic memory of our revivalist heroes have beome idols. Even their greatest revivals were localized. Wesley, Whitefield, Edwards, Moody, and others were not worldwide. Furthermore they weren't enduring.

This is not an attack on these Godly men of whom the world was unworthy.

Within our labrynth of firm beliefs, can we add that God has his "remnant" scattered throughout the church? Like a flooding river that rises equally around every rock, tree trunk, and hillside it swallows, so does the invisible Holy Spirit rise within the visible church? Maybe that's what you were trying to say and we agree on this point.

I'm not trying to find a way to claim that all segments of beliefs in the church are true...most of our idols will be burned up as the hay, wood, and stubble they are. I am believing God that in all segments of Christianity, even the wacky ones, there are true Christians.

Some may think my words are "divisive" and humanistic. I hope that they are centered in Christ alone.

Let the polemic roasting commence :-o

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/3/1 1:17Profile
moreofHim
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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: revival heroes

MC,

Quote:
Perhaps our mythic memory of our revivalist heroes have beome idols.


This statement realy stuck out to me. I have been concerned about this before. But I think it is worth repeating. We have ideals and expectations of how things have been or happened in the past. When i hope we are not missing out by looking unto jesus alone for what we "need" as far as church or anything else goes.

All of these fine men and women who were used of God are good to read about, but we cannot set our minds on them continuously and hope for the same. We have to set our minds on Christ and hope only in Him. He alone is God and will do as He sees fit.

again, in similar words of Chip Brogden, if we didn't have these teachings, books or sermons (and yes, thank the Lord we do) but would Jesus be enough? Would our love for him compell us to obey Him and follow Him. Because obeying him and following Him is what's imporant.

I just read a small passage from Oswald Chambers yesterday that went along these lines:[b] Don't preach salvation, don't preach holiness, don't preach, baptism in the holy Ghost, (i would interject here anything like "revival", etc...) Only preach Jesus Christ and everything will fall into it's place.[/b]

In His love, Chanin


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Chanin

 2005/3/1 8:37Profile
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3228
Texas

 Re:

All of these fine men and women who were used of God are good to read about, but we cannot set our minds on them continuously and hope for the same. We have to set our minds on Christ and hope only in Him. He alone is God and will do as He sees fit.


I like that statement! and feel this is so true.


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Mr. Bill

 2005/3/1 9:46Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Ever since the Enlightenment, Christianity of the western world had tended to be obsessive with the [i]purely doctrinal.[/i]

Entering into the 21st century, postmodernity has become the dominant mood of the western society. Perhaps these movements are reactions against the strong emphasis on the purely cognitive.

There are movements that lay emphasis on the [i]experiential[/i] aspect of the Christian faith. Tired of mere discussions of abstract doctrine, they sought the empowering presence of the Spirit in their lives -- the [b]charismatic[/b] stream.

There are also movements that emphasise the [i]social[/i] dimension of the Christian faith. Perhaps because of fundamentalism's reaction against liberalism's Social Gospel, the strong social concerns in the scriptures for the poor and oppressed are quite often mere talk. Thus, some Christians sought to recover practical acts of charity and stand in solidarity with the poor and oppressed -- the [b]incarnational[/b] stream.

Moreover, there are movements that are beginning to appreciate the value of community, obviously reacting against the strong individualism of modernity. God did not just save individuals, but he save them [i]into[/i] the Body of Christ. In various ways, these groups tried to revitalise the corporate dimension of church life -- the [b]communal[/b] stream.

In different ways, these streams magnify what it really means to be the Church. The Church, the pillar and foundation of truth [b](doctrinal)[/b], is also the Body of Christ [b](communal)[/b], where each member is empowered by the Spirit and endowed with spiritual gifts for the building up of the Body [b](charismatic)[/b], such that the Church represents the continuing presence of Christ in the world [b](incarnational)[/b].


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Sam

 2005/3/1 11:30Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Our western gospel is too didactic. Somehow we need to find ways to hold onto our deep convictions while findiing fellowship with other devoted believers. Is there a revival without crossing denominational boundaries? We say that revival begins when we repent of our sins. Do we really know what that means for a globe where all the church is interconnected? What is holy living in the 21st century? Wouldn't true repentance would lead to radically reshifting material resources to the poor, the naked and persecuted that belong to Christ. May that day come!


Ah, the old paradigm shift? The western church too didactic? I don't know. It is certainly an issue which has exercise my thoughts for many a year. I have a quite a bit of experience in missionary settings and am often challenged by their eager evangelism. I met a man in Malawi who had been baptised 6 times. Every time some evangelised him they encouraged him to be baptised; so every time he responded to God he submitted to baptism. A little didactic input might have changed his understanding.

Paul had never visited Colosse but his teaching in Colossians equals anything in the Bible. The concepts are majestic and soaring; should he have kept to something less didactic?

The thoughts I have struggled with are that the gospel was preached to the poor and simple and many responded, but the teaching in the New Testament epistles is by no means 'basic'. There is a way to remain simple in our response and at the same time 'grow up' in our understanding, but I think it has to do with teaching the believers not only what the borders of truth are but also teaching them 'how to walk in the Spirit'; I am not referring to any methodology here. If a man stuffs his head with knowledge he just becomes puffed up, but knowledge on fire is a wonderful thing to behold.

As I read the New Testament I feel a great diversity of experience and operation. There were divergences of doctrine but never the thought that it doesn't really matter, but rather a resolve to press on to know the truth. But this difference of understanding was not allowed to put up walls. The saints at Corinth had some weird ideas about the resurrection, but Paul nowhere suggests their exclusion. People who persisted in wrong lives were to be excluded but people with wrong views (and they [u]were[/u] wrong) were never under threat of expulsion. (not at this level, anyway) The word 'heretic' in Titus 3:10 is a schismatic drawing people to his own party rather than a pedlar of different doctrines.

We are to 'grow up' but 'growing' up always changes things. How can I un-know what I know. The secret of the early church was not an innocent ignorance but in a LIFE which was in the Spirit.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/1 11:40Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
The secret of the early church was not an innocent ignorance but in a LIFE which was in the Spirit.


To add a few shillings, it is interesting to read what was written to the different churches in response to that life that was flowing through,in and around them. My personally observation is that they were all letters placing boundary lines of operation on that life.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/3/1 12:33Profile





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