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 Re: Slandering God's Servants - SI Forums Note

Brothers and sisters,
The spirit of the request from brother Greg is that we be very careful in speaking out against specific ministers and ministries and especially in naming names. Sure there are obvious wolves that "blind Freddy" can notice, but unless I am mistaken, brother Greg doesn't want this site to turn into another "free for all, discernment ministry". There are plenty of other sites who do this, but that is not the direction that brother Greg wants SermonIndex to take.

I don't think brother Greg or most people here think that discernment ministries are wrong and/or unnecessary (although some are way over the top)...but this is a side issue, the topic at hand is for us to be very careful who we speak against. I am guilty of getting over excited in the past and have shouted from the rooftops about certain false teachers and ministries and yes I have named names (not on SI but elsewhere). I have lost friends because of my immaturity and I am grieved because of this. I pray the Lord helps to restore those relationships.

Generally speaking it is not wise to name names and it is never acceptable to slander the name of anyone publicly.

Even if someone asks what do we think about so-and-so, lets speak in generalities and point them to the Truth, for the sake of keeping the unity of the Spirit. Now, all that I write I am speaking in regard to SI...what we do in our own homes and fellowships is another matter.

Its a simple request from SI and if we do our utmost to honor this, the Lord will bless us and build an extraordinary unity among us all.

Mark

 2012/10/23 18:57
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 Re:

Quote:
Brothers and sisters,
The spirit of the request from brother Greg is that we be very careful in speaking out against specific ministers and ministries and especially in naming names. Sure there are obvious wolves that "blind Freddy" can notice, but unless I am mistaken, brother Greg doesn't want this site to turn into another "free for all, discernment ministry". There are plenty of other sites who do this, but that is not the direction that brother Greg wants SermonIndex to take.

I don't think brother Greg or most people here think that discernment ministries are wrong and/or unnecessary (although some are way over the top)...but this is a side issue, the topic at hand is for us to be very careful who we speak against. I am guilty of getting over excited in the past and have shouted from the rooftops about certain false teachers and ministries and yes I have named names (not on SI but elsewhere). I have lost friends because of my immaturity and I am grieved because of this. I pray the Lord helps to restore those relationships.

Generally speaking it is not wise to name names and it is never acceptable to slander the name of anyone publicly.

Even if someone asks what do we think about so-and-so, lets speak in generalities and point them to the Truth, for the sake of keeping the unity of the Spirit. Now, all that I write I am speaking in regard to SI...what we do in our own homes and fellowships is another matter.

Its a simple request from SI and if we do our utmost to honor this, the Lord will bless us and build an extraordinary unity among us all.

Mark



Brother Mark, you have said it perfectly. Thank you!


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2012/10/23 19:38Profile
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Joined: 2003/11/23
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 Re:

I think that this reminder is a very good thing to keep in mind.

I know that there is a legitimate gift toward "discernment." However, true discernment will not be short on facts or interpretive of certain points.

A few years ago, there was a debate on Bible translations. One poster repeatedly posted some accusations about certain "member" of the "translation committee" of a particular Bible translation. The accusation was cited from a source that was very biased toward a particular conclusion. The "source" that was cited within that "source" was another biased work.

After spending some time, I learned that most of the works that cited the claim were based upon a single source that was never verified. So, I decided that it was important enough to contact the individuals who were the targets of the accusations.

I actually suspected that the accusation would be true (or partially true) given how it was repeated so often by KJV-only sources. However, I learned that it simply was not true. I actually received an email and phone calls from the translators of that particular version...as well as directly from the individual in question.

This experience, and a few other "verification" issues like it, reinforced the idea that there is often another side to a story -- even if an individual claims to be gifted with discernment.

There are individuals who we can point directly to and say that they erred or proclaimed a false doctrine. I can point to the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, etc... and point out the poison in their doctrines. Likewise, if a would-be prophet stands up and makes a specific proclamation that never comes to pass, then we can conclude that such a person was a false prophet.

For instance, if a man "prophesies" that the Eastern seaboard of the United States was going to be underwater in the 1990s (which obviously didn't happen), then we can conclude that it was a lie (even if it was inadvertent or the person proclaiming it was "well-meaning").

There is another issue about whether or not we NEED to go about pointing out certain offenses that we find in another man's list of doctrinal views. Are we truly called to point at a man and proclaim him a "heretic" if we disagree with him on a doctrinal issue? Is that "discernment?"

Whenever possible, we need to verify what others say. I don't think that anyone -- "prophet" or "non-prophet" (pardon my pun) -- would be afraid of someone questioning or testing their words or proclamations. After all, a disagreement is not necessarily an indictment of "heresy."

Interestingly, many accusations are difficult to verify. Why? Many of the preachers who are pointed out in threads on the SermonIndex forums are long since dead. Martin Luther? Dead. C.S. Lewis? Dead. The early Anabaptists? Dead. Wesley Brothers? Dead. Charles Finney? Dead.

As a result, we can't approach these men for clarity. For instance, I know that Charles Finney has been accused of having embraced certain things. "Evidence" (gathered mostly from books that he did not write but are supposedly taken from his notes...often posthumously) is pointed out, scrutinized and a verdict is rendered. Yet, other things that Finney wrote seems to contradict claims about what he actually believed.

Regardless, I agree with what Brother Greg has said here. SermonIndex was never intended to be a place where we scrutinize preachers and sift through each and every statement that they make. I love brother Greg...and hold him as a dear brother in Christ. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that we agree on EVERY issue.

If we were so motivated, I suspect that we could sift through EVERY believer on SermonIndex with a fine-toothed comb and find something that we think is "wrong" either in actions, dress or beliefs. However, I just don't think that this is what God has called us to do. It certainly isn't spiritual "discernment" -- but theological "deduction" (or scrutiny).

I can sit down with believers who disagree with certain issues. I would love to have been alive at the time of Finney, Luther, Tozer or other dead men and see what it is that they actually believed...or if they were as pliable with their doctrinal beliefs (maturing as they matured in Christ) as many of us have been. Were they the saints/sinners that people claim they were? Increasingly, I find that I don't care to know. I can judge a statement by the statement without sentencing the person for whom the statement is attributed.

I am blessed to have had the opportunity to sit down with Leonard Ravenhill for an afternoon in his home. He was as authentic there as I hear him to be in his sermons. Yet, when I see some preachers scrutinized, I can't help but wonder if Brother Ravenhill will one day be scrutinized in a similar manner (if the Lord tarries).

Thank you, brother Greg for this timely admonition.


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Christopher

 2012/10/23 20:35Profile
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 Re: Slandering God's Servants - SI Forums Note

It's Not the Critic That Counts

It is not the critic that counts, nor the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, nor where the doer of deeds could have been done better.

The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena—whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly—who errs and comes short again and again—who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause;

Who at best knows the end of the triumph of high achievement, and who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while doing greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat!”

~Theodore Roosevelt

http://www.ephrataministries.org/remnant-2012-07-its-not-the-critic-that%20counts.a5w

 2012/10/23 22:20Profile









 Re:

Is it me or does anyone else feel that the requests made here are childish?

We are constantly being herded into a fenced place, can't do this can't do that, don't go here, don't say this, don't say that.

They are childish to me because if you have the love of Jesus in you, your going to be careful how you say anything against another brother openly.

If we bite and devour one another or we are quick tempered, something is deeply wrong with our spiritual condition. For example, I can mention Jimmy Swaggart and I can see people vomiting their wicked heart against him. All they can see is his sin and can't get beyond it. Which tells me a great deal of how they view redemption and mercy, it's powerless to those who sin AFTER they are saved. Personally, I love the man, his preaching and singing ministers to me. But to other believers, they have a real problem with him. That is just an example, I didn't mention him for anyone to spew their hatred here, so please refrain.

Notice how I said the same childish request? I said, "so please refrain". If we have the love of Jesus in us, I shouldn't have to say that.

This is the problem friends. Like the Pharisees we love the bible, but we lack Mercy, Faith and Judgment which Jesus was reeking with when He went around doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil. The Pharisees were quick to judge, but Jesus wants us to weigh everything before we come to a fair conclusion but even than He wants us to show mercy. Jesus wasn't excusing the woman who was caught in adultery, what He wanted His accusers to acknowledge was that they were no different than she. But Jesus didn't say, "ok girly your accusers are gone, see ya". No, He told her, go and sin no more. He went beyond what the law demanded and pulled out another law, MERCY. God showed this same thing through David and Bathsheba. Mercy, Faith and Judgment were always there but no one could see it because few loved God. When you love God, you will have these components there and you will be quick to listen, quick to hear a matter before judgment is passed, and even then when a man loves, he even is more longsuffering not willing that any man should perish.

 2012/10/23 23:54
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 Re:

hi, i can only say ;thank you Lord for this light that will hopefully dispell the darkness of slander and criticism in our midst and in our hearts.jimp

 2012/10/24 1:11Profile
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
I know that there is a legitimate gift toward "discernment." However, true discernment will not be short on facts or interpretive of certain points.



I've often noted that the enemy of our souls speaks in condemning generalizations and narritives about our character and identities, while the Holy Spirit's conviction is precise, touching something specifically that is actionable.

"And the crowds were questioning him, saying, “Then what shall we do?” And he would answer and say to them, “The man who has two tunics is to share with him who has none; and he who has food is to do likewise.”

And some tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Collect no more than what you have been ordered to.”

Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

Blessings,

MC




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Mike Compton

 2012/10/24 3:21Profile









 Re:

Quote:
However, true discernment will not be short on facts or interpretive of certain points.

Oh I wish that this was the case. Discernment usually comes in pieces. But one piece is enough to arrest our attention that more is going on than what meets the eye.

Quote:
hi, i can only say ;thank you Lord for this light that will hopefully dispell the darkness of slander and criticism in our midst and in our hearts.jimp

I hope that we all would see this, but it's not going to happen. We need to have our minds transformed into the mind of Christ that the flow of God's instructions will be unhindered, than we shall know what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Unless there is a change, this information will only stave off for awhile, surprisingly, some believers will only be chomping at the bit waiting for an opportunity to spill their "truth". To me that is sad, but pride is the big player here and there are a lot believers that cannot let go of the idea that they have to be right.

It's not important that we are right, it's important that we know that Jesus Christ is TRUTH. When we know that we are right, we have a different mindset, not of pride that we have amassed great knowledge, but that knowledge can service others and not serve ourselves.

One of the wonderful things that God helped me to do was to be released from the idea that I was right. He put me in touch with people that knew more than I could ever know about anything. I would walk away deeply ashamed because they had something that I lacked. They had knowledge alright, but they had a balance of mercy which I did not have.

In those days I had a loose tongue and I spoke against other ministers of the gospel whom I thought had no right to preach the gospel because they didn't have the full gospel message that I claimed to have had. Looking back at myself, I was an ignorant fool. Sure I was born again, but definitely wet behind the ears.

I think this site helps other believers in that direction because of the way they view this site. Though innocent in every way, but the "remnant" idea may be producing believers from being indifferent in other preachers that they disagree with. It's a sad day but they may be comparing this site and it's contents, it's do's and don'ts, it's conferences, it's webmaster etc..,they may be developing this website as their base, a religion if you like, and any preacher that doesn't line up to the star preachers that are on this site are put down and ridiculed. This was a danger that Paul put down and if I may put Frank Bartlemen on the same page with Paul, he, by the Spirit quashed at every whip stitch.

 2012/10/24 6:38









 Re:

amen. Mark spoke well, Greg's request was humble, Mike Compton's Word was sound and simple.

It's a Simple Faith, embrace it like a child, humble and meek and you will not stray from the Kingdom of God.

make it so Lord, amen.

 2012/10/24 8:11









 How do we keep the faith pure?

Again, the sign of the Last Days is deception overwhelming people, not Revival or unity. This is especially true with more prominent people who have learned that the "ministry" can be a source of a good income and a seat of Honor. It is these that Paul warned about in Acts 20, concerning those who"rise up among you, drawing disciples after themselves."....."making merchandise from you."

So, again....Does everyone who names the name of Christ a true minister of Christ.....or could some prove themselves false, and actually be used to devour the Church, rather than bless the Church? ...with their bad doctrine and false practices, and their acting out the role to maintain their authority.

Let us look at the Shepherd's role and the lambs again;"

" Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

Do we look at the lie, possibly being believed by the naive, and thereby slaying them, as something we must and WILL give account to God for, as we were entrusted with light to warn others, and expose the wicked? I do. All of the Apostles did too.

For example I believe that the doctrines of the RCC are evil...ALL of them....and their methodology that is Babylonian to seek God too....and is poison, and will kill you . Also, their are the Ecumenicalists...One Worlders who embrace all religions as a path toward God, like Warren, and is it now illegal to say so here? [ After all it is just my opinion..] It is also true.

I concede that the propensity for venom, accusation and cruel dogma could arise, and does....but this should be dealt with on an individual level, in my opinion. There is such a thing as bad doctrine, and deceivers, and MUCH of the vitriol that I have experienced here isn't from discernment applied, but from those who opposed them being exposed as to what they were, and these same deceivers they accepted as true.

This is just life in the Church...and it always will be like this, as the war goes on. You may try to sink your head like the Ostrich, and hope for continued blessing and unity...but it will never happen..[ until Jesus returns.]

The site has done a great job maintaining the peace here, and I applaud Greg and his staff....but there also has been freedom....and an open door for the prophetic..[ to a degree]....and when this begins to be quenched over the "trouble" it may insert, I believe that then, the Lord just leaves...and you end up with the Letter and the Mind....which will leave you as dry as A BONE.

I am talking about something that John the Baptist, Jesus Himself, and ALL of the Apostle practiced every day....calling truth ,truth, and light, light...and frankly...I'm appalled at all of the honor of man being slung around commending one another as if you were anything.[ me too]. Where is the glory to God alone, and the reality that we are unprofitable anyway?

Is the prophetic discernment being slain here?...Looks like it to me...and it is precisely the same argument of the Pharisees...."We cannot let this continue!"

There has to be a balance where the truth, and yes the truth in individuals, [ even the moderators] is confronted according to the Word of God, otherwise you are guaranteeing usurpers accepted; whoever they may be.

 2012/10/24 9:32





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