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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

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 Re:

Quote:
A person can be 'saved' (justified) and be in the First Adam, but they were not in the Kingdom of God. Not even John the Baptist was in the Kingdom of God. Why? Because the Kingdom of God is for those that are living out the reality of the New Covenant through the One Baptism in the Spirit.

Brother Robert thank you for bringing this out. This is exactly how I was trying to write this in a recent pre-post that never made it to print. I had a long post written up only to find myself wondering how to marry the person who is justified freely by grace through faith and that same person who does not go further and receive the One Baptism. How they can be saved without being born again by the One Baptism and the, "if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His".

Since you seem to have knowledge and I see that you do the same thing that I have to do and "go out on a limb", the Lord has given you wisdom on this matter, I would like for you to expound further that I may fully grasp what is happening to the folk that are Justified without being in the Kingdom or without the One Baptism. I believe this subject has been buried over and very few know (including myself) how the redemption project works in the believer who believes in the Gospel but yet does not receive the promise of the One Baptism.

Give yourself time to feel out the Spirit before answering if needed.

 2012/10/27 9:55
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3408
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Croref

Quote:
Croref wrote:
Does that mean it shouldn't be discussed that one's thinking might be adjusted?


I just happened across this thread and saw your question! So being nine pages into it (I’ve not read past page 1), I’ll humbly say the following...

“Shouldn't it be discussed?” Yes and no, just be on the lookout b/c there are some people on SI that hold their own opinion in very high esteem and are very protective of “it” and will fight to the bitter end (whatever means necessary) to protect said opinion instead of just agreeing to disagree; but you've been here since 2008, so you must know this! :) :)

God bless you brother!!
Lisa


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Lisa

 2012/10/27 11:03Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:


"The Two covenants" by Andrew Murray. A great read with much insight:


http://www.jesus.org.uk/vault/library/murray_two_covenants.pdf

 2012/10/27 11:27Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Approved,

Quote:
I would like for you to expound further that I may fully grasp what is happening to the folk that are Justified without being in the Kingdom or without the One Baptism.



I had wanted to answer this question yesterday as I could see it was coming up. It usually follows that we would have to deal with those that lived in the Old Testament, given that Jesus said 'you must be born again' (John 3:3). What about the thief on the cross and others that may come to Christ in faith, but never move into the fullness of Christ. Do we have an example in the book of Acts? I think we do.

In Acts 19 and 20 we have an account of the birth of the church at Ephesus. Tracing the church at Ephesus from its birth to Revelation 2 and beyond was the subject of my new book, "The Love You Had At First" (available on Amazon for those interested). It was a pagan city that had a synagogue in place as a 'light' in the midst of the darkness. Apollos came preaching in the synagogue the message of John the Baptist. It was all he knew. We then discover that there are disciples also at Ephesus that have a near identical experience as Apollos (he later gains a full understanding). It is my view that these disciples were probably the result of Apollos' preaching. They were baptized with John's baptism.

Paul arrives at Ephesus and asks these disciples a question; "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" (Acts 19:2a NKJV) Notice that Paul does not 'tell' them that they received the Holy Spirit when they believed, but he 'asks' them if they received when they believed. Paul does not believe receiving the Spirit is determined by a process of logical deductions drawn from proof texts as we find pervasive in modern Evangelicalism. He wants to know, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed.” The evidence Paul is looking for is personal testimony based on conscious reality. They had already believed and confessed, but had not received. It is my view that these disciples were NOT in the Kingdom of God 'yet'. They were justified by faith and were in some sense disciples, but Paul senses something about them and asks them this great question.

Hypothetically speaking if one of them were to die before they received the Spirit they would still be 'saved' (justified), because our standing with God is not based upon sanctification, but upon the finished work of the Cross. As we may reasonably assume, there is ample reason to believe that their faith was genuine; and yet they had not 'consciously' received the Holy Spirit. If anyone should know it is the person, so Paul asks them and assumes he will get an answer. They said that they had not as much as heard that there by any Holy Spirit. The sequence then follows from Acts 19:4-6.

Notice that these folks did not argue with Paul. As soon as they heard that God had something (someone) for them that they had not yet received, they were on it. There was a hunger to do God's will and be all that He wanted them to be. This is evidence of genuine repentance. Now we are back to Acts 7 and Stephen's sermon again. Stephen told the people that God did not desire to dwell in temples made with hands, but wanted to live IN man (Isaiah 66:1ff). But there was a problem; though God wanted to come INTO man, men do always resist the Holy Spirit. They don't want the absolute Lordship of Christ, for Him to reign in them as He reigned in the Wilderness Tabernacle or in Solomon's Temple or in the Heavenly Temple for that matter. Christ is not just our Great High Priest that secures forgiveness of sins, He is also the King of Kings. This is that which was after the order of Melchezidek. He is King/Priest IN those that are baptized into Him. Many people want a priest, but the don't want a king, but they are One Lord. He cannot cease to be King as He operates as our Great High Priest, etc.

So it is my present understanding that if a person has not received the Spirit it is either because they don’t have that revelation yet or they are resisting Him. It is a simple thing to say but answers a myriad of questions; you simply cannot receive the High Priest and resist the King at the same time. The Ephesian disciples wanted all that God wanted for them and they went right through with God, without a fuss. Why did it take as long as it did for the Ephesians? They answered, "No, we have not heard that there is a Holy Spirit." They did not have essential revelation. This tells us that the message they received did not include the portion where John the Baptist told the people that Jesus Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with Fire (Matt. 3:11). Perhaps it was because of the obscurity of the prophecy?

Who could have expounded on what baptized with the “Holy Ghost and with Fire” actually was before they witnessed it for themselves on the day of Pentecost? It was the Glorification of Solomon's Temple all over again- except God did not come into a Cedar and Gold Building, but into the Temple of Men. They were utterly glorified! God came into them to reign. They became members of the Kingdom of God on earth. From that day forward was the potential for men and women to do God's will on earth as it is done in Heaven. This is why Paul made such radical statements about being dead to the world and the world being dead to him, etc. It is hard to fathom the level of Spirituality these men were moving in; but it's what God wants for all of us if we will just stop resisting. Sometimes the order of the steps in the process are mixed around, but there has to be a willingness to obey God.

So what about those that died and were not born again? My present understanding is based on a passage in Hebrews 12:23,... To the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect. Notice that last portion, "the spirits of just men made perfect." These men and women saw te promise afar off and embraced it and declared plainly that they were strangers and pilgrims in the earth. Why? Because they sought a city that had foundations, whose builder and maker was God. (Hebrews 11:10) They refused to be mindful of that place from which they came out, lest they had been tempted to return. But they sought a Heavenly city where God was not ashamed to be called their God. These all died in faith, seeing the promises afar off. They, in my view, upon entrance into their reward are (were) 'made perfect'. Blessings.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 11:35Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi CoRef,

Quote:
Personally I don't see anyone receiving a new heart for the purpose of believing God nor one that needs circumcised for the same reason__circumcision being a spiritual reckoning for overcoming our flesh for establishing a singleness of eye __given the scriptures I have already submitted.



I think we are in agreement here. I see salvation as by grace through faith. When I say 'faith' I mean right response to God when He reveals His will to us. I do not believe that a person needs to be born again to exercise faith. God speaks and we are enabled by the grace encapsulated in His word, to believe.

Quote:
You have written much that by saying all you have I am still not sure where you stand on the issue of baptism[s]

Here is where I am:

Assuming salvation:

!. We are reconciled by Christ by the Holy Spirit.

Assuming the New birth that can be at the same time:

2. He then is the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit that enables for ministry.

1 and 2 both carry with them the responsibility to faithfulness for what is expected. I see 1. as me choosing Jesus while 2. is Jesus choosing me because of what He sees in my heart, to have the confidence I will follow through [even eventually] to knowing Him as He desires. Having established myself in the new birth, do I believe for His Baptism?? Other way of asking the same question: Do I love Him that intimacy with Him is paramount in my heart? If it is then the Baptism of Jesus Christ per Acts 2 will be a certainty. I know this to be true, which is my answer.



I think we see this very much the same way. For me, as a neo-Pentecostal, I don't quite tow the party line of main stream Pentecostalism. I believe that Baptism in the Holy Spirit takes a person out of Adam and places them INTO Christ and with all comes ALL of the benefits of the New Covenant. Unlike many pentecostal brethren, I think the experience is much more than power for ministry. I believe it is the great experience that turned Saul into Paul and a timid cursing fisherman like Peter, into the great Apostle that moved in the reality of Christ in the book of Acts. This means I believe that there could very well be people that have had the experience of Baptism in the Holy Spirit, but yet they do not move in any of the gifts (prophecy, tongues, etc.) because of how they understand the scriptures as it relates to those things. In other words, they 'can' and have that capacity, but for reasons known only to God, they do not. There are far too many people that have served God in great power for them to have not been baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit. I do on the other hands believe tongues to be somewhat normative in Acts and definitely there was a prophetic element to thoase that had been Baptized into Christ by the Spirit.

On the other hand, I have seen people 'speak in tongues' and yet they did not move in the reality of the New Covenant. So I think the primary proof that one is IN Christ is that they are led by the Spirit and yield the Fruit of the Spirit- primarily Love. (Romans 5:5) If I don't see the fruit of the Spirit in a persons life I'm not interested in their prophesies, tongues, etc. Now that I've gotten way out on the limb... Blessings.




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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 12:00Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
"The Two covenants" by Andrew Murray. A great read with much insight:



This is a great read. I would also recommend a book by a dear brother that used to contribute a lot in these forums, Ron Bailey (philologos). http://www.amazon.com/The-Better-Covenant-ebook/dp/B0077RR14C


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 12:02Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 8:35:40


Hi again Robert!

Bottom line: The new birth notwithstanding, what is required for "complete" salvation an understanding of the scriptures give us that is made effective on either side of the cross?

Hint: Romans 5:1.

 2012/10/27 12:07Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Croref,

Quote:
Bottom line: The new birth notwithstanding, what is required for "complete" salvation an understanding of the scriptures give us that is made effective on either side of the cross?



Agreed. Justification is by grace through faith. Always has been and always will be. blessings.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 12:30Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 9:30:32

Hi Croref,

Quote:
Bottom line: The new birth notwithstanding, what is required for "complete" salvation an understanding of the scriptures give us that is made effective on either side of the cross?



Agreed. Justification is by grace through faith. Always has been and always will be. blessings.


But justification without the shed blood of Jesus is short of salvation. Without the Blood the Justified would have remained separated from God, held captive by death.. Paradise would still be in use. That is what I see from Rom.5:1.

 2012/10/27 12:47Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Coref,

Quote:
But justification without the shed blood of Jesus is short of salvation. Without the Blood the Justified would have remained separated from God, held captive by death.. Paradise would still be in use. That is what I see from Rom.5:1.



I heard an illustration concerning propitiation and the Blood of Christ that I have found useful. A man takes his 5 children to the Zoo and the ticket taker allows the first three through without a ticket. Why? Because they saw dad coming with the money in his hand. In like fashion, the saints of old were saved by the blood of Christ just as the saints today, because for the OT saints the price paid to remove the offence was coming.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 12:54Profile





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