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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

agreed, if they just mouth words, no, but if they repent and trust in Christ yes.

Here's the problem. Multitudes are invited to come forward and say the prayer in crusades, church services, and one on ones, and we automatically pronounce them saved on the spot. We hear, "3,000 came forward and got saved, 100 got saved, 40 got saved, etc." What's wrong with that? What's wrong is that the vast majority of those people are absolutely lost and have now been "gospel-hardened" by this unbiblical "formula/ritual". If all those people were really being saved we would be in the midst of a massive awakening, but instead there is a massive amount of false conversions being produced by the hour.

We prefer to keep the delusion so that we can say that God is using us and we are adding more numbers.

Why don't we just do what Jesus and the prophets and apostles did? Why not pray and fast and preach the gospel and let God convert them without us trying to convert them with our manipulating methods?


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Oracio

 2012/10/25 14:37Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Simply because a man says a prayer to be saved does not mean that this man will be regenerated.

So what do you have to be saved then?


_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/10/25 17:08Profile
stevet83
Member



Joined: 2012/9/9
Posts: 77


 Re:

It seems very subjective to me. Just like I can't declare one to be save, I can't declare one not saved

 2012/10/25 20:33Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Quote: Simply because a man says a prayer to be saved does not mean that this man will be regenerated.

So what do you have to be saved then?



To be saved you must repent(turn from your sins to God) and believe in Christ(trust in Him alone to save you).

Jesus said by their fruit you will know them. Repeating a prayer or going forward at an altar call is not sufficient fruit to indicate someone is saved. If someone seems to be bearing the fruit of the Spirit then we can safely say they seem saved and call them a brother or sister in the Lord.


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Oracio

 2012/10/26 0:19Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: To be saved you must repent(turn from your sins to God) and believe in Christ(trust in Him alone to save you).

Do you mean that I must stop sinning to be saved?

If not the what do you mean?

Edited to ask second question.


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Colin Murray

 2012/10/26 7:28Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5376
NC, USA

 Re:

murrcolr wrote:

"Do you mean that I must stop sinning to be saved?"
_____________________________

As the scriptures indicate, even if sinless perfection is not necessarily a description of the Christian life, it is nonetheless the DETERMINATION of the Christian life. A true believer really believes that Jesus is the Lord, and gladly embraces that reality with a determination to actualize and demonstrate that lordship in his/her own conduct.

I am "saved," or not, insofar as I have, or have not, truly "changed my mind" (repented, metanoia) from its original inclination. From birth, our minds are set on doing our own thing, gratifying our own lusts, and manipulating all people and circumstances to serve our own interests. The mind must change in this respect. The mind must choose to renounce all this self-interest and embrace Christ's Lordship as the defining paradigm for all of life. When such a change of mind has genuinely occurred, the believer's life will be directed toward obedience and righteousness—but not flawlessly.

Many people, to commemorate this action, say something along the lines of a "sinner's prayer" wherein they thank God for saving them, a sinner, through faith in what Jesus did on the cross, commit to following Him from that point forward. But is not NECESSARILY the sinner's prayer that saves them, although it MIGHT be depending on their heart condtion and motive at that moment.

In the film, "The Robe" the character of Marcellus Gallo makes this pronouncement: "From this day forward, I am enlisted in His service. I offer Him my fortune, my sword, and my life. And this I pledge to you on my honor as a Roman."

That is as good a sinner's prayer as any, because it was simply a statement and confirmation of the heart transformation that had already taken place.



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Todd

 2012/10/26 8:29Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Amen TMK. Couldn't have said it better myself.


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Oracio

 2012/10/26 9:48Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: A true believer really believes that Jesus is the Lord, and gladly embraces that reality with a determination to actualize and demonstrate that lordship in his/her own conduct.

Quote: I am "saved," or not, insofar as I have, or have not, truly "changed my mind.

Quote: That is as good a sinner's prayer as any, because it was simply a statement and confirmation of the heart transformation that had already taken place.

So let’s review what you have said.

1. I am saved because I changed my mind.
2. Make a simple statement to confirm that change
3. Show that Jesus is Lord by "determination" to "actualize and demonstrate that lordship.

I hope I have been fair to your post.

I must go back to the first time I encountered God, as I sat on my bed I said a simple prayer that “ God I am fed up being like this please change me” As I lay down on my bed a wind left me and then a wind entered into me. After which I sat up and spoke in a funny language, I ask what that was and the answer that came to my mind was tongues.

All it was simple faith in a God who could hear and answer prayer… I didn’t have to show any “determination" to "actualize and demonstrate that lordship”. I was changed and all that knew me before could see the change there was no self-effort on my part.


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Colin Murray

 2012/10/26 10:13Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
I must go back to the first time I encountered God, as I sat on my bed I said a simple prayer that “ God I am fed up being like this please change me”



Quote:
All it was simple faith in a God who could hear and answer prayer… I didn’t have to show any “determination" to "actualize and demonstrate that lordship”.



In saying that prayer from the depths of your heart("God I am fed up being like this please change me"), you did what TMK is speaking of, he simply explained it in more eloquent words. You were "fed up" with the way you were living apart from God and "determined" to let God change you("please change me"), to "actualize and demonstrate that lordship."


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Oracio

 2012/10/26 12:11Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: you did what TMK is speaking of, he simply explained it in more eloquent words.

Lol well at least God liked them...


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Colin Murray

 2012/10/26 13:45Profile





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