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stevet83
Member



Joined: 2012/9/9
Posts: 77


 Re:

THK,
thanks for your reply. I've been thinking a lot about salvation in regards to regeneration. I myself have said a sinners prayer(more than once), but was that prayer the start, or a result? You said, "I would say they are saved if they were truly seeking to be saved". One who isn't saved, would they seek to be saved? Or are you saying one gets saved which initiates the seeking resulting in the experience?

 2012/10/22 20:39Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

hi, just my two cents again. The Lord's prayer is meant to be an example of what Christians should be praying about, not a word for word formula ritual prayer.

I acknowledge that by God's grace and mercy there have been some who have been saved through this unbiblical formula of the sinner's prayer. Likewise there may be people who are saved under the ministry of people like Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, etc. God is rich in mercy and will save anyone who's heart is turned toward Him in sincere repentance and faith in Christ. That doesn't give anyone an excuse to continue harmful practices and teachings.

On the other hand, there have been millions more who have been deceived and harmed by the sinner's prayer. They have been deceived into thinking all they need to do is repeat a prayer and that's it, their in; that they can continue as things were before they said the prayer; that the prayer is their fire insurance.


_________________
Oracio

 2012/10/22 20:48Profile









 Re:

And Moslens are coming to Jesus through dreams and visions. I imagine that is not Reformation tradition. Brothers tbe issue is not how they came to Christ or what words they said. The issue is whether there a credible testimony ofJesus in their heart. .

Be it through a sinners prayer, walking to tbe altar, reading tbe New Testament, a dream or vision or seeing the majestic grandeur of God in creation and recognizing tbe Creator. If tbe heart calls out to God in salvation he will save them. If that person had a credible testimony in Christ, the venue of how they cane to Christ us moot.

My thoughts.

Bearmaster.

 2012/10/22 20:57
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

These are just of few testimonies of people who were harmed by the sinner's prayer....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jQsGlS0sQ4&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvDAygfVVX0

This is a clip from Paul Washer on this topic...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4axy22oTkA&feature=fvwrel


_________________
Oracio

 2012/10/22 21:04Profile
stevet83
Member



Joined: 2012/9/9
Posts: 77


 Re:

Oracio,
My intent with this thread is to be objective, please don't try to target and discredit.

 2012/10/22 21:18Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

steve83, I'm not sure what you meant in your last comment there.


_________________
Oracio

 2012/10/22 21:30Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5485
NC, USA

 Re:

I agree with Oracio that many people have been deceived by the sinner's prayer. But that is not the fault of the "sinner's prayer." It is the fault of a Church which in many cases drops the ball once a person "goes forward" or raises their hand in a meeting while everyone's heads are bowed and eyes are closed. (if we dont know who raised their hand, how can we disciple them?)

I believe public declarations are important, which is why I believe baptism is important. The NT evidence seems to be that actions speak louder than words.

But in all honesty, I dont see how we get around some sort of a "sinner's prayer" if someone is ready to repent and submit to the rule of Jesus Christ. From a purely theoretical standpoint, I believe that a person can be legitimately and fully "saved" w/o uttering a word, if they repent and submit themselves to Christ and begin evidencing fruits of the Spirit. However, from a practical standpoint, I believe that it is important for a person to make some sort of statement of faith, need and commitment.

Think about it, if we are sharing the gospel with someone and lo and behold they are convicted and want to turn their lives over to Jesus, what should we do? I think we should of course tell them what that means (count the cost)but I think ultimately they should say some sort of a prayer. What exactly form that prayer may take will vary, but God knows the intent and the heart.


_________________
Todd

 2012/10/22 22:42Profile
stevet83
Member



Joined: 2012/9/9
Posts: 77


 Re:

I see it differently. If a "convert" doesn't produce fruit, it's because he wasn't regenerated/made alive in the first place. There is no prayer or act of will that can make someone a new creation in Christ. If I'm regenerated, fruit is a natural result. Jesus said, make the tree good and it will produce good fruit. He who began a good work in you will complete it

 2012/10/22 23:28Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, it is not genuine to think some one walks out on a platform and says repeat after me...the preaching of the gospel of the bloody death of Jesus Christ. the knowlege that He is risen. the knowlege that He took the wrath meant for us upon Himself...the knowlege that He did this because He loves us and wants us to be saved.the Holy
Spirit then woos the lost and makes the lost realize that today is their day of salvation... the obedience to the wooing of the Holy Spirit by coming forward and professing publickly Jesus as their LOrd and saviour.dont tell me millions of these folks are lost.jimp as i stated earlier, this is when the church comes in to disciple this person by making sure they have a bible, felloowship,direction(beginner classes). the true meaning of repentance.etc

 2012/10/22 23:53Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

hi, yes, the vast majority of the people going forward at these kinds of events, crusades, services, etc. are absolutely lost. An old friend of mine used to do follow-up work for a huge well-known crusade where thousands came forward over a weekend. They would collect many "decision" cards and call these folk up to do "follow-up".

If my memory serves me right he said out of the many follow-ups he did he never got in contact with one single person who seemed interested in following Christ afterward. He said he was discouraged and confused because so many of the people that came forward wanted absolutely nothing to do with Christ, His Word, or church afterward. He then realized it was mostly a sham, the whole crusade. The people going forward had many alterior motives for going forward.

Some went forward just to get a close look at the baseball field, some because of an emotional high, etc. Very few actually got saved out of the thousands. I am convinced that this whole sinner's prayer business is one of the reasons there are so many false converts today.


_________________
Oracio

 2012/10/23 0:15Profile





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