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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5390
NC, USA

 Re:

If AW Tozer quotes and approves of the mystics-- including Madame Guyon--- that is good enough for me.

What do you think Jesus was doing for 40 days in the wilderness?




_________________
Todd

 2012/10/22 15:39Profile









 Re: Stamped inside ready to mail.

Just some more sincere questions for you brothertom...

For you what does it mean to be born again??

When Jesus dies and rose again He says it is for the comforter to come. What does that mean?\

When the disciples received the Holy Spirit, what was that? Was this inwardly or outwardly?

I am just wondering your thoughts on these things...

Thanks...Star of God******************************

I was born again, and Baptized in the holy Spirit in March of 1972, on a Street Corner in Boulder Colorado. I had just traveled from Florida, with an odd promise from God, that if I travelled there He would save me.

I was a quasi-believer I guess...I just knew that Jesus was right...and somehow believed that He was Savior, but unaware and ignorant of His Lordship, and vaguely aware of His sacrifice...I just thought He was right. It was like I had faith as thin as a strand of my hair.

This was not always so. I spent years in the drug world at the ripe old age of 22, and had already served as a combat Marine in Viet Nam..[ wounded], and had committed atrocities and murder, and generally mocked Christians, and hated God....fornicated and occasionally shot heroin, and did every drug I could find, with a lot of LSD.

It was in this state of mind that I arrived in Boulder, and about 6 hours later I was approached by a group of "shiny people", Jesus freaks, led by a young man I still do not know.

They began to tell me about the 4 spiritual laws, and told me to kneel and receive Jesus...which I wanted to do anyway, and I said something like this; "Lord Jesus forgive me of my sins, and come into my life!"...and then...something like a wind entered me, and I experienced every SIN I had ever committed rush away from me, out of me! and a LOVE above Love possess me deep inside of me.........and I was drunk with Love.

I stood up clean, almost unaware of what had happened to me...and that Spirit that had entered me owned me, as I then began to tell others about being born again, and just said the name of Jesus; and other people would get saved it seemed. I led many people to Jesus those first few weeks.

The Bible became real to me; a living book and I devoured it, as I do yet today.

That Spirit that entered me, began to change me, and I learned to pray to my God who lived above, and from the inside where He lived, I communicated outside to Him on His Throne As MY FAITH GREW....AND HE OWNED ME MORE.

so..in ANSWER TO YOUR INQUIRY, THE HOLY SPIRIT ALWAYS ENTERS US, WHEN WE REPENT AND BELIEVE, AND BECOME A CHILD OF GOD, AND WE EXPRESS OUR FAITH OUTWARDLY WHEN WE WORSHIP HIM WHERE HE LIVES...ON A THRONE IN HEAVEN.

If you have been born again, you will know it, and when and where it happened....just like on your birth certificate.

He has never left me.


 2012/10/22 16:15









 Re: Satan's lie about inward prayer....Ancient Deception.

Quote:
If AW Tozer quotes and approves of the mystics-- including Madame Guyon--- that is good enough for me. 

What do you think Jesus was doing for 40 days in the wilderness? tmk




Jeanne Guyon didn’t advocate living the life of a mystic or of practising outward measures in order to accomplish inner realities. Moreover she didn’t expect very may people to experience the things she was writing about. Even for those who she wrote about “experiencing” the depths of Jesus Christ, she believed it would take many years to fully experience it. It stands to reason therefore that any one who takes on the mantle of “mystic” should not expect any benefit any time soon. Moreover such a one had better be prepared to forsake everything including their very soul, according to Madam Guyon. Herein lies the difficulty with mystical writings! They express something that in words is inadequate and impossible to understand in the natural mind. The desire to go that way howsoever you come to conceive of it is fraught with every implication of deception and has proven more dangerous to many than a true benefit of that I feel sure. It is a distraction from the reality of life which few can afford to lay hold off.

Much more likely is the life of a believer accepting the mystery of the Cross-whereon Christ was crucified and in whose body we also are reckoned dead to sin and delivered of the old man through baptism? Seeking to comprehend and experience unity in Christ’s death will serve most believers better than seeking an inner unity that in any event is already fully accomplished. If you are born again you have the life of Christ fully the moment you believed. If you are going to draw inward then expect the outward to become a rag. For such is the inclination of the mystic. On the other hand you could just be content with being a vessel for God and rejoice in the fact that from the inner most part shall flow rivers of living waters. Who said we had to take a swim anyway? Really. Someone please show me where we are encouraged in God’s word to go inward in order to find union with God? That we have union with God must be self-evident or how else could we have been born again from on high?


As for The Lord in the wilderness it had about it no mystery whatsoever. Christ Jesus was then and is now The Word of God made flesh; Only one who is born of God’s Spirit is able to comprehend this and to such a one it is not a mystery but a reality. We do not know the fullness of what happened in the wilderness. We only know its purpose, how it came about and the end of it. Whilst I don’t doubt that hereafter we will all be astonished and amazed by seeing Christ in His fullness we will nevertheless not fail to recognise Him even as we recognise Him now if we indeed do recognise Him; even as He recognises us. Please try to remember that it is revelation and not mystery that informs us. Revelation can in an instant lay waste to your own ideas and in a moment you will be grateful of it. By revelation you can know mysteries as though they were not mysteries at all. I completely and whole-heartedly agree with Tom on this point. Know that God is in you without which knowledge you are not saved, but worship Him in heaven. Worship and prayer is not the same thing but they are inseparable. The omniscience of God comprehended in the inner man is not the same as the Majesty of God comprehended in the heavens by the Spirit. Yet God is one. Being conscious of God inwardly makes for inward prayer. Being in the spirit in heavenly places seated in Christ at the right hand of the Father makes for prayer also in heaven. Both the inward and the Heavenly give rise to true worship and the knowledge of God.

 2012/10/22 17:39
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Mysticism is an interesting topic. I understand what is meant by the classical definition of the term "mystic", but I sometimes wonder if we aren't tempted to apply the term to anyone who seems a bit more off the deep end than makes us comfortable.

Whatever the case may be, I think sometimes we make a mystic / non-mystic distinction that I do not see applied anywhere in scripture. Nowhere do I see any sort of monastical lifestyle where men squirrel themselves away so that they might devote themselves entirely to study and contemplation. Yet I see men who left the serving of tables because they had been called to devote themselves to the Word of God and to prayer and ministry. These men then proceeded, by their very lives, to change the world, and most died martyrs deaths.

I do not see any Biblical mention of "contemplative" prayer, but I do see that God, through His Holy Spirit, seeks to dwell in constant communion with man. We are to be super-saturated (baptizo) with the Holy Spirit. So, in that sense, our prayers do not have to get any higher than the ceiling as God, through the Holy Spirit, dwells in us (Jesus said that the Holy Spirit was with us, but would be in us.) God is indeed inside of me, and I am not Him.

2 Cor. 2. Paul speaks of a mystery. This, if you want to think of it in this way, is very much "mystical". That I could have the very mind of Christ and know His thoughts? That I can receive, by revelation of the Holy Spirit, the mysteries of the Kingdom of God? It is truly marvelous.

As to IHOP...I thought I might say some things, but I think I should not. Let it suffice to say that I have seen some very Godly men and women come out of that place, and I have seen some good fruit. I have also seen some things that cause me great concern, but not, BrotherTom, the things that you mentioned.


_________________
Travis

 2012/10/22 18:22Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
As to IHOP...I thought I might say some things, but I think I should not. Let it suffice to say that I have seen some very Godly men and women come out of that place, and I have seen some good fruit. I have also seen some things that cause me great concern, but not, BrotherTom, the things that you mentioned.



I concur here with twayneb. I think it is good to use caution when labeling this group in such a radical way. Living in the metro area, I have been to IHOP on a number of occasions, not the least of which was twice to see Art Katz when he was alive.

Paul tells us plainly:

And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 5:18-20)

Notice where the songs and prayers are to be made, 'in your heart to the Lord'. This is ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ (in or with the heart). This agrees with 1 Samual 16:7b,... for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. As well as the Psalmist, And the sayings of my mouth shall become good pleasure, and the meditation of my heart is before you always, O Lord, my helper and my redeemer. (Psa. 18:15 NETS from LXX / 19:14 KJV) Here μελέτη is rendered meditation. Both Old and New Testament religious practice included prayer and song in and from the heart.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/22 20:57Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Satan's lie about inward prayer....Ancient Deception.

RE: Brothertom wrote ///As Christians, we pray to a God seated Above, outwardly, through a Savior God, the Son, seated there at His Right hand....not to our fallen natures within our corrupt heart.///

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

john ch 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


john ch 12
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit


john 14
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

What does the word Christ mean??

1 John ch 2 20 But ye have an (unction)(anointing) from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

27 But the (anointing) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same (anointing) teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:7
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


Christ in you

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,


RE brother tom wrote:///not to our fallen natures within our corrupt heart///


Ephesians 3:17
That Christ may ((dwell in your hearts)) by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,


Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Edit: another set of important verses came to mind
Acts ch 17
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.















 2012/10/22 21:14Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Thanks, Chris.

Communication being a two-way thing... how do you listen to God during prayer? Do you reserve a period of silence in expectancy of hearing from Him?



 2012/10/22 22:58Profile









 Re:

Philippians 4:6,7 "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication make your request known to God and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Prayer is something that most of us struggle with at one time or another. There is a direct correlation between your walk with the Lord and your prayer life. There can be seasons of dryness, seasons of drought, seasons of abundance, there can be deep dark winters from which we may think we shall not emerge from, all of this is common to every saint.

There are many teachings about prayer, there are a thousand books one could buy that attempt to teach us how to pray properly, or with power, or with might and faith, and yet the truth is as simple as our relationship with Jesus. Prayer is our relationship with God. They are one and the same. If we attempt to separate them then we will get lost. There are no formulas, no secret methods, prayer is being in the presence of God.

When I was a teenager, I had to go to a school that required me to go by train. On the journey home, a guy in my class would get of at the same stop, and, as we lived in the same neighborhood, we would have about a two mile walk to get home. I used to dread that walk home. I did not really know this guy and so we both talked incessantly about anything and everything just so we could avoid any embarrassing silences. As we got to know each other better, there was not such a need to constantly have to think of something to say, and as time went on, we could be peaceful in the silence.

For most of us, we have a concept of prayer that is all about talking. We start of by giving thanks, then we make our requests, we pray for family members and before we know it has become ritualistic and barren. Prayer should be much more like breathing, when was the last time you thought about breathing? Your probably not even conscious of your breathing, yet you do it continually and it sustains you and gives you life, bringing precious oxygen through your lungs, sustaining the very nerve center of your body, your brain. While prayer times and quiet times are good, for many, that is our moments when we connect with God. In the morning and in the evening before we go to bed. If we have neglected His presence all day, our prayer times will not be effective.In our minds, we must take God every where we go, whispering to Him all through the day as we face the challenges, trials and temptations that come with life. Begin to see God everywhere, visualize His presence everywhere you go and you will be amazed at the depth of your relationship that will come. You will not just be talking to Him in your prayer times and quiet times, He will become an integral part of everything that you do.

Each whisper, every Godward thought, every word spoken, each moment of silence spent in His presence is like a musical note to the Lord. The Scriptures refer to the Lord as "He who sits above the circle of the earth." And so He who sits above the circle of the earth, sees each and every one of these musical notes from around the world from the Body of Christ, rising up in a majestic symphony of love and worship and it is a sweet, sweet sound in His ears. This day, become part of that symphony, let your days be filled with thoughts of Him, release whispers of love to add to the music of prayer. Simply whisper the name of Jesus, all throughout the day, remind Him of how much you love Him, thank Him for the day, no matter what kind of day that your having. Rediscover that bond of love and joy and peace that comes simply by being in His presence. When you do this brothers and sisters, your prayer life will change dramatically, but not only your prayer life, your life itself. For when we walk in continual prayer we begin to see the beauty of the Lord everywhere. If it rains, we see His beauty in the raindrops, if the sun shines we see His beauty as the flowers turn themselves around to face the glory of the Son. If it is cloudy we see his beauty break through the clouds in beams of light that remind us that despite the momentary darkness, He is not finished with us and that His light is ready to break through. Pray without ceasing brothers and sisters, it is not a bondage, but a glorious privilege that enables us and empowers us to be overcomers in a dark world that is desperate for the light of love, joy, peace, truth, justice and compassion. If we continue in Him, if we abide, then we will be all of these things and more and our lives will be dynamic testimonies to the glory of the risen Lord.

As I finished writing this, I sense that many who read this are facing "cloudy days," and the light of the Love of Jesus seems to have flown away. I pray that this day the Lord will give you eyes to see beyond the clouds and you will reestablish your connection with Him. I wrote this poem as I flew into Scotland, a country almost continually covered by clouds and darkness.
EVER PRESENT

BEYOND EVERY CLOUD
I KNOW ITS TRUE
THE SUN SHINES BRIGHT
AND THE SKY IS BLUE

IF WE ONLY HAD EYE'S
THAT COULD TRULY SEE
THAT DESPITE HUMAN CHAINS
WE ARE SURELY FREE

SO DO NOT STAND STILL
FROZEN TO THE GROUND
LET YOUR SPIRIT FLY
IN THE AIR TO BE FOUND

AND WHEN THE DARK CLOUDS
THREATEN TO CONSUME
ALWAYS REMEMBER
THAT THERE'S AN EMPTY TOMB

AND THAT JESUS OUR LORD
REIGNS ON HIGH
AN ETERNAL SON
AN ETERNAL BLUE SKY





 2012/10/22 23:53









 Re: Satan's lie about inward prayer....Ancient Deception.

Quote:
And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 5:18-20)

Notice where the songs and prayers are to be made, 'in your heart to the Lord'. This is ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ (in or with the heart). This agrees with 1 Samual 16:7b,... for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. As well as the Psalmist, And the sayings of my mouth shall become good pleasure, and the meditation of my heart is before you always, O Lord, my helper and my redeemer. (Psa. 18:15 NETS from LXX / 19:14 KJV) Here μελέτη is rendered meditation. Both Old and New Testament religious practice included prayer and song in and from the heart. Robert Wurtz II




Arising from the heart, of the heart, make in the heart and a thousand similar expressions will never equate to look into the heart. IHOP models itself intellectually and vainly on what it imagines to be monastic life. Some Americans should remember that some of us live in countries where the monastic life has been around for 1400 years. It wasn't found on a Californian street corner. The IHOP has a paper thin conception of monastic contemplative life hence why it vainly imagines it can produce one.

There are growing numbers of testimonies as to what this IHOM life is really like for some people as they have experienced it on a day to day basis not just a flying visit. Ask yourself one thing brother. Would you allow your daughter or son to join it in community? All the drivel in this world comes out of America. God help us and keep us from America. Oppps too late!

 2012/10/23 1:28
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
There are growing numbers of testimonies as to what this IHOM life is really like for some people as they have experienced it on a day to day basis not just a flying visit.



To the contrary, for those that have been around on these forums for a number of years will know that I have actually been part of groups that have sought to reach out to folks from the former Metro Church and what has come to be known as IHOP. There is no doubt as to the experience and practice of elements within this group that I have chalenged in these forums (a search would probably turn up a few from 2004 or 2005); but to paint them in the way that has been on this thread is highly objectionable and dangerous.

Quote:
Ask yourself one thing brother. Would you allow your daughter or son to join it in community?



I take a general hands-off approach to IHOP. I do not promote and I do not condemn. They have a prayer and worship meeting running 24/7/365 and have for years. The original design being that God would send revival. They have also outreach ministries to homeless and the poor, preaching Christ. I have encountered them in my own street ministry.

Quote:
All the drivel in this world comes out of America. God help us and keep us from America. Oppps too late!



I find this comment to be uncharitable, immoderate, divisive and completely unnecessary. But I will not answer like for like. Rather, perhaps you might enjoy this short clip of my recent two week trip to the UK in Devon and London. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og7pWj7hi5s


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/23 2:41Profile





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