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Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Quote:
It might help with this discussion if you could explain what you mean when you speak of "worldly churches." After all, the term is ambiguous and relatively defined by each person who reads those words.

. . .

What specifically constitutes the term "worldly" in your description of a particular church? How can you specifically determine whether or not a church is "worldly?"



I totally agree with the post above. There is a lot of latitude with the word "worldly". It means a range of things to a range of people. However, in this ambiguous and non-judgmental age, I think we give too much credence to the sentiment that all truth or assertion is relative.

Our starting point is the Word of God, and it contains absolutes. John says, "If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him." So, the Bible has a concept of "the world" or "worldly".

So, I humbly assert that there is a clear concept of what is worldly, even though the term, like all terms, has a degree of variation from person to person. In other words, what is worldly in one culture might not be in another, but it doesn't take away the absolute. I hope no one takes my reference to culture as allowing any dilution of our understanding of "worldly". John says "all that is in the world" is worldly, not of the Father and is passing away. Many, many churches allow and excuse these worldly, carnal things in their midst. Anything that has anything to do with the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life -- things found in abundance in many churches today.

So, a person who wants to depart from these for Christ and the true gospel wants to get away from "worldly churches". I think it is as simple as that.

 2012/10/19 9:31Profile
Gonzalo
Member



Joined: 2010/10/18
Posts: 11


 Re:

@ murrcolr:

Do you think that the Apostles taught witchcraft when they told believers that we are sanctified by faith AND works, as in James 2? Do you beleive they were teaching witchcraft when telling Christians that they have to dress modestly 1. Tim 2, 1. Pet. 3) which is an outward form of the inner reality? Paul, in the letters to the Galatians is expressivley talking about the MOSAIC LAW, not NT-Commandments! The people he thinks are falling into witchcraft are HEATHENS who want to be like the JEWS! That is a very particular topic which has nothing to do with the clear teaching of the whole NT of the necessity of obedience towards NT-commandments in order to be saved!!! After all, wouldn´t it be very strange if the apostles and Jesus gave plenty commandments just so that they end up throwing them all over board again! FAR FROM IT! Please don´t mix up Pauls teaching about the MOSAIC LAW with the NT-commandments! This is a very common and fatal error of modern Christian teaching! Please read the NT and ask yourself why:
1. Jesus says that only those who keep his commandments really love him and that those who don´t keep them, don´t love him.
2. the NT numerous times says that we will be judged according to our WORKS.
3. the NT CLEARLY teaches that we´re saved by 1. Faith and
2. the evidence of that very faith, which are the works, the fruit resulting from true faith
4. Jesus in the letters to the churches in teh book of Revelation ALWAYS speaks about the WORKS of the church...

Please don´t get me wrong. We´re saved by faith and by grace. But the bible clearly teaches a salvation as process. Phase 1: We´re saved by faith and repentance from evil works. We can do nothing but turn to God in order to be saved! No works can help us to get our salvation. PERIOD.
Phase 2: Sanctification. Thats the part that many people forgot. We have to bring fruit, good works (the NT speaks of the necessitiy of GOOD WORKS NUMEROUS TIMES)which are the fruit of the spirit, love and the obedience to Jesus`commandments and all apostolic NT-commandments. If one lacks those or even teaches and believes that he doesn´t need to worry about those things in order to be saved, you can be very sure, that this person is on the wrong track! Without holiness no one will ever see the father! Or why do you think that Jesus speaks about salvation as a narrow door AND a narrow way (which already indicates that salvation is a process, not a one time thing thats to be done and then finished)....
please consider what I´ve tried to explain in very very short form..If anyone is interest in dipping a bit deeper into that subject I´d recommend reading this:

http://www.elcristianismoprimitivo.com/thegreatdivorce.htm

 2012/10/19 11:01Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Do you think that the Apostles taught witchcraft when they told believers that we are sanctified by faith AND works.

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26:18

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth 2 Thessalonians 2:13


Sanctification is by faith………it is the Spirit of God that sanctifies. It is simple grace by faith you receive the forgiveness of sins and by Faith you are sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Quoye: In the letters to the Galatians is expressivley talking about the MOSAIC LAW, not NT-Commandments! The people he thinks are falling into witchcraft are HEATHENS who want to be like the JEWS!

The people he thinks that are falling into witchcraft are not heathens they are ones who have “received the Spirit” he then goes on to ask did they receive the Spirit by works of the law or by faith.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
The key or the root of there problem is found in the next verse, they began in the Spirit but are trying made perfect (sanctified) by the flesh
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Quote: That is a very particular topic which has nothing to do with the clear teaching of the whole NT of the necessity of obedience towards NT-commandments in order to be saved!!!

The clear teaching of the whole NT is for by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9

Wow…. Quote “necessity of obedience towards NT-commandments in order to be saved”

You now what fruit of this type of teaching will be self-righteous pride, why because it gives you something to boast about because it something you have done in your strength. (Works of the Flesh)

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:13-14

As a Christian you can either live after the flesh or through the Spirit, mortify the deeds of the body, be led by the Spirit and be a Son of God. We are either live under the law or are led Spirit we can’t have it both ways.

The danger for the Christian seeking to be made perfect “Holy” is that in Foolishness they try to be perfect by following rules which is “Legalism” and “Legalism” is a work of the flesh.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/10/19 14:09Profile
Gonzalo
Member



Joined: 2010/10/18
Posts: 11


 Re:

ok murrcolr, we will not agree and I don´t want to get into a deep discussion about this topic again... I could answer all of your claims. I don´t disagree with the FACT that we´re saved by faith...but its NOT faith ALONE! If faith IS NOT folowed by works, it is of NO VALUE, according to the bible...this one passage in James sums it up pretty well, although there are a multitude of similar scriptures...

James 2, 14-25:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

There are SO many more scriptures that back up what James is saying here, but I don´t want to go deeper.
But I want to warn you, you are falling short of truth if your believe that we´re saved by faith alone. Study the NT properly and the early christian writings and you´ll find out, that "Faith alone" was taught by one particular group: The gnostics, not the true church! If you´ll study a bit of church history you´ll find out that only after the church fell into apostasy under constantine they developed such teachings as arbitrary predestination and salvation by "faith alone"...to be precise it was Augustine, a 5th century theologian who came up with that...The reason why so many Christians believe this false doctrine today is that, Luther was a big Augustine-fan and brought back this teaching and made it famous...If you wnt to find out what the early Christians really taught and lived, take a close look at this:

http://www.earlychristiandictionary.com/

In my last post I wrote something which could be understood in a wrong way. I said that you have to keep ALL NT-commandments in order to be saved. Well, to make that point clear: I firmly believe that you "only" have to repent and believe in order to GET saved! But the bible clearly teaches that with this UNEARNED salvation there starts a process called "sanctification" or "holiness"! If you repent and you die unaware of a certain sin you´ve been committing (not knowing that it was a sin), I don´t believe God will condemn you (PROVIDED YOU HAVE TAKEN THE RIGHT DIRECTION AND WERE WILLING TO LAY EVERYTHING ASIDE TO FOLLOW JESUS!!!). However, if you repent and/or believe that Jesus died for you, but you ignore the fact that he wants us to keep his commandments and simply live by your own reasoning and are not in the process of sanctification, you will NOT SEE THE FATHER! And that does not mean that you will have to be a 100% perfect with everything, but that your direction will CLEARLY be that of increasing holiness, repentance and LOVE towards God AND men! There also are commandments which are MORE important than others, like loving God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself...BUT this INCLUDES the Commandments of the Sermon on the MOunt because those commandments are the specific APPLICATIONS of those two MAJOR commandments in real life, which for example practically means: Christians are NOT ALLOWED to take oaths, to participate in WAR or to make use of PHYSICAL RESISTANCE, or to save a lot of money for him/herself and so on...Nonetheless seemingly "less important" commandments as the headcovering of the woman and modest dress for females AND males are also NT-commandments which are to be observed...if they weren´t, the apostles wouldn´t have written about them and the Holy Spirit would had let them into the scriptures...

Quote:

You now what fruit of this type of teaching will be self-righteous pride, why because it gives you something to boast about because it something you have done in your strength. (Works of the Flesh)


Answer: No, the fruit of the doctrine of Salvation by FAITH ALONE has got a very bad fruit of self righteousness, because it makes beleive that you don´t have to live by the new righteousness laid out by Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, of which he says that no one who will not live by this righteousness will not enter the kingdom of heaven! (Mt. 5-7)

Quote:
As a Christian you can either live after the flesh or through the Spirit, mortify the deeds of the body, be led by the Spirit and be a Son of God. We are either live under the law or are led Spirit we can’t have it both ways.

Answer: Do you really think that all the NT-commandments are works of the flesh???? You are twisting the scriptures my friend... Jesus says numerous times that many people will say "Lord, Lord" to him on Judgment day, and he dismisses them for what..? For not having DONE what he said!!!

Quote:
The danger for the Christian seeking to be made perfect “Holy” is that in Foolishness they try to be perfect by following rules which is “Legalism” and “Legalism” is a work of the flesh.

Answer: DIs you know that the term "legalism" does not apper ONCE in the whole bible??? Rather Jesus and the apostles are constantly warning about LAWLESSNESS concerning the end-times and the final judgment...isn´t that paradox???

After all, please just answer this question: Why should Jesus and the apostles give us commandments throughout the whole NT just to say that we don´t need to keep them at all..this makes NO SENSE AT ALL!!! Please consider... I´ve got no time to answer this in detail now...

 2012/10/19 15:16Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: That is a very particular topic which has nothing to do with the clear teaching of the whole NT of the necessity of obedience towards NT-commandments in order to be saved!!!

Quote: I could answer all of your claims. I don´t disagree with the FACT that we´re saved by faith...but its NOT faith ALONE!

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

If there is one lesson the believer needs to learn, who would serve in the newness of the Spirit, that the law, the flesh, that self-effort are all utterly impotent in enabling us to serve God.

It is the Spirit within, taking the place of the law without, that leads us into the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free. 'Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.'

To walk in the path of this New Life it will further be specially needful to remember what is meant by the expression the word so distinctly uses, 'walk after the Spirit.' The Spirit is to lead, to decide and show the path.

'We walk by faith:' this is what we specially need to remember in regard to a ' walk after the Spirit.'

The Spirit is to lead us in everything as soon as we add to the Gospel message of faith + obedience towards NT-commandments in order to be saved, then we step into error.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/10/20 13:57Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2010


 Re: saved by grace through faith


murrcolr,

A hearty amen to all your posts on this thread!

Sadly, the original poster seems to be oblivious to the bewitching(to fascinate (by false representations) - bewitch. - Strong's) appeal of many anabaptist churches.

This is a very anabaptist-friendly site so your posts on this thread will receive little or no affirming.

The original poster has been given discernment enough to leave worldliness behind, but in a desparate reaction is being drawn to the superficiality of this sect.

Gal. 3:1-3 You foolish Galatians! Whose sophistry has bewitched you--you to whom Jesus Christ has been vividly portrayed as on the Cross? Answer me this one question, "Is it on the ground of your obedience to the Law that you received the Spirit, or by the hearing of faith?" Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now going to reach perfection through what is external?

Reproof of the Galatians for abandoning faith for legalism. Justification by faith vindicated: The law shown to be subsequent to the promise: Believers are the Spiritual seed of Abraham, who was justified by faith. The Law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might become children of God by faith. - JFB

Who hath bewitched you? some false teacher or another had, or it cannot be conceived how their heads should ever have been turned this way; which must be understood, not in a literal and proper sense, as Simon Magus bewitched the people of Samaria with his sorceries, but in a figurative and improper one; that as sorcerers and enchanters cast a mist before people's eyes, or, by some evil arts or juggling tricks, deceive their sight, and make objects seem to appear which do not, or in a different form than they really do, so these deceitful workers, who had transformed themselves into the apostles of Christ, as Satan sometimes transforms himself into an angel of light, had set this doctrine in a false light before them, thereby to corrupt their minds from the simplicity that is in Christ. Though the apostle reproves the Galatians for their folly and weakness in giving in so easily to such deceptions, yet he imputes the chief fault unto, and lays the greatest blame on the false teachers; whom he represents as sorcerers and enchanters, and their doctrine, particularly that of justification by works, as witchcraft; it being pleasing to men, a gratifying of carnal reason, and operating as a charm upon the pride of human nature. What Samuel said to Saul, 1 Sam. 15:22 may be applied to the present case, "to obey" the truth "is better than sacrifice", than all the rituals of the ceremonial law: "and to hearken" to the Gospel of Christ, "than the fat of rams", or any of the legal institutions; "for rebellion" against, and opposition to any of the doctrines of the Gospel, and especially to this of justification by the righteousness of Christ, "is as the sin of witchcraft". - John G.

May God intervene and show you the way.

Prov. 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

As the way of sin and wickedness does, it promising much carnal pleasure and mirth; there is a great deal of company in it, it is a broad road, and is pleasant, and seems right, but it leads to destruction; so the way of the hypocrite and Pharisee that trusts to his own righteousness, and despises others, and even the righteousness of Christ; or however does not submit to it, but tramples upon him, and counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, and so is deserving of sorer punishment than the profane sinner; yet on account of his good works, as he calls them, fancies himself to be in a fair way for heaven and happiness...and the air of devotion that appears in them, seems to be a right way. - M.H.

 2012/10/21 1:03Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Galatians

Galatians 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now

I would encourge everyone to do an unbiased study of Church history.

Matthew ch 7 v 13

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


 2012/10/21 1:29Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2010


 Re: saved by grace through faith is Christ's Gospel


Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits,....

By "fruits" are meant, not so much their external works in life and conversation; for a false prophet may so behave, as not to be discovered thereby. So the Pharisees were outwardly righteous before men; and false teachers among Christians may have the form of godliness, and keep it up, though they are strangers to, and even deny the power of it: but their doctrines are here meant, and the effects of them. When doctrines are contrary to the perfections of God, repugnant to the Scriptures of truth, tend to depreciate the person and offices, blood, righteousness, and sacrifice of Christ, to lessen the glory of God's grace, to exalt the creature, and to fill men's minds with notions of the purity, self-sufficiency, and ability of human nature; when they are calculated to feed the pride and vanity of men...

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

This is the conclusion of the whole, and a repetition of what is before said, the more to fix the rule of judgment upon their minds, and engage them to try men by their doctrines, and their doctrines by the standard of the Scriptures, and not believe every spirit; for with some care and diligence such persons may be detected, and the malignant influence of their ministry be prevented. The sum of the whole is, that ordinarily, and generally speaking, as men are, so are the doctrines they preach, and by them they may be known, and judged to be what they are. Christ here, and in the preceding verses, is speaking not of men of bad lives and conversations, who take upon them to teach others; for there is not so much reason to caution good men against these; they are easily detected, and generally discarded; but of men that put on sheep's clothing, who pretended to much holiness of life and conversation, and strictness of religion; and under that disguise delivered out the most corrupt and unwholesome doctrines; which tended greatly to depreciate him and his grace, and to do damage to the souls of men. - Gill

It now remains to be seen, what are the fruits which Christ points out. Those who confine them to the life are, in my opinion, mistaken. As pretended sanctity, and I know not what masks belonging to greater austerity of life, are frequently held out by some of the worst impostors, this would be a very uncertain test. Their hypocrisy, I do own, is at length discovered; for nothing is more difficult than to counterfeit virtue. But Christ did not intend to submit his doctrine to a decision so unjust in itself, and so liable to be misunderstood, as to have it estimated by the life of men. Under the fruits the manner of teaching is itself included, and indeed holds the chief place: for Christ proves that he was sent by God from this consideration, that “he seeketh not his own glory, but the glory of the Father who sent him.” (John 7:18.)

Galatians 4:29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.

The Spirit is again contrasted with the flesh, that is, the calling of God withhuman appearance. (1 Sam. 16:7) So the disguise is admitted to be possessed by the followers of the Law and of works, but the reality is claimed for those who rely on the calling of God alone, and depend upon his grace.

“He trusted in God; what availeth it to him?
for he is deprived of all assistance.” (Matthew 27:43.)

There is more venom in this than in all persecutions; for how much more alarming is it that the grace of Divine adoption shall be made void, than that this frail life shall be taken from us? Ishmael did not persecute his brother with the sword; but, what is worse, he treated him with haughty disdain by trampling under foot the promise of God. All persecutions arise from this source, that wicked men despise and hate in the elect the graceof God; a memorable instance of which we have in the history of Cain and Abel. (Genesis 4:8.)

This reminds us, that not only ought we to be filled with horror at outward persecutions, when the enemies of religion slay us with fire and sword; when they banish, imprison, torture, or scourge; but when they attempt, by their blasphemies, to make void our confidence, which rests on the promises of God; when they ridicule our salvation, when they wantonly laugh to scorn the whole gospel. Nothing ought to wound our minds so deeply ascontempt of God, and reproaches cast upon His grace: nor is there any kind of persecution more deadly than when the salvation of the soul is assailed.

 2012/10/21 2:09Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote I would encourge everyone to do an unbiased study of Church history.

You are third one on this thread to recommend history.

What is the reason for this trend....

Quote: When doctrines are contrary to the perfections of God, repugnant to the Scriptures of truth, tend to depreciate the person and offices, blood, righteousness, and sacrifice of Christ, to lessen the glory of God's grace, to exalt the creature, and to fill men's minds with notions of the purity, self-sufficiency, and ability of human nature; when they are calculated to feed the pride and vanity of men.

That was good posts and thanks for the support...


_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/10/21 14:29Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 wolves kill Sheep , Sheep do not kill wolves

1 John ch 3 v 7-15
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Wolves Kill Wolves, Wolves Kill sheep, ((Sheep do not kill wolves !!)), The Only protection that the sheep has is the Shepherd which protects him as long as he stays close to the Shepherds voice.
The Shepherd also may have dogs which are not the sheep but are ordained by the Shepherd to protect the sheep.
Even though the dogs may be ordained by the Shepherd, the Dogs are not sheep and the Shepherd would never send a sheep to full fill the role of the Dog.


Matthew 10:16
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and ((harmless)) as doves.

Romans 8:36
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter

Again I would encourge everyone to do an unbiased study of Church history.



 2012/10/21 14:33Profile





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