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Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474

 Re: Can we obey God or not

Yes, we can obey God fully and it's not about us at all. It's about fully submitting every area of our life to the Lord Jesus. It's about the power of the blood of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit to create a heart. A heart that walks clean before Him through His power and blood. It's not about me at all, it's all about Jesus.

Ed Pugh

 2005/2/26 9:34Profile

Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777



In "Youth Aflame", Pratney mentions that Ps 51:5, could be refering to David's illegitamate birth (as some have speculated).

I would say that the context of Ps.51 excludes this possibility since David is dealing with his own sin and sinful condition.

Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/2/26 9:41Profile

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK


Pratney mentions that Ps 51:5, could be refering to David's illegitamate birth (as some have speculated).

and that's exactly what it is, speculation with not an ounce of evidence. Hulsey's comment below is on target too I think. Ps 51 is the classic I-thee conversation. No one else exists in the whole world except David and the One he has offended. "Against thee only, have I sinned..." This is biblical repentance.

Ron Bailey

 2005/2/26 9:42Profile

 Re: Psalm 51 is poetic and figurative

What about Psalm 51?

Many people think that we are born in sin because David said in Psalm 51:5 "I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

This passage is poetic and figurative.

In verse 7 he says, "purge me with hyssop, and I will be clean."

No one will be cleaned from sin by hyssops.

Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

This verse is figurative because no baby is born talking and therefore cannot speak lies at birth. If a baby is really guilty of sin then it must repent which is impossible.

It is the wicked who 'go ASTRAY", if the text is to be literally interpreted, it means that infants TALK as well as lie from birth! Nothing here about inherited sinfulness.

 2005/2/26 11:16

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Ps 51 is the classic I-thee conversation. No one else exists in the whole world except David and the One he has offended. "Against thee only, have I sinned..." This is biblical repentance.

Moreover, I would only add that in my view "Against thee, only have I sinned..." speaks to the realization David came to in understanding the essense of all sin. You can miss what I'm about to say so listen carefully. Paul said that when the commandment came sin revived and he died. He also discussed in another place how that the carnal mind cannot be made subject to the laws of God. Why? Because the law excites in man "the sin" that is in him which is a nature desirous of being fulfilled by sinning against God. As new born believers our "meat" is to do the will of the heavenly Father. For the unregenerate, their 'meat' is to rebel against God. That is what "hits the spot" for the sinner. Sin gratifies them.

I often make this illustration to show my point. Whan a kid sneaks behind the school to puff on a cigarette when no one is looking (even his friends) he is not being gratified by the sensation of his lungs being scalded by the smoke or the excessive coughing and gagging it causes. He is being gratified by the rebellion. He is gratified by the feeling that what he or she is doing is wrong. That 'feeling' or 'rush' is at the root of much non chemical addiction.

It seems that when people do something against their conscience that a certain 'feeling' is set off that the person becomes addicted to. They become addicted to "rebellion against God" itself. Anything that can satisfy the feeling a sinner gets when they rebel against their conscience will feed this appetite. People actually start "jonesing" for sin. The means of their rebellion can vary all over the place. Yet at the end of the day no matter what flavor of sin you prefer; it is ALL that sensation of rebellion against God that you are after. David could have had any beautiful single woman in Israel. Beauty was not the issue. There was something that added an exponential desire to his heart when he heard she was married. It happens for all of us. How shall we respond when we hear something is out of bounds? Shall we turn aside in obedience or shall we lust to transgress against God? What was it? It was the temptation to gratify that lust for sin that was the core of his transgression. The sin was against GOD. God was not just a casuality in this scenerio- Uriah was.

God Bless,


Robert Wurtz II

 2005/2/26 11:37Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Not at all

Hi Free,

It is the wicked who 'go ASTRAY", if the text is to be literally interpreted, it means that infants TALK as well as lie from birth! Nothing here about inherited sinfulness.

Yes precisely. That was what I wanted to draw into the mix here as primarily the thought behind Psalm 51;
Many people think that we are born in sin because David said in Psalm 51:5 "I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Being that this is often used as that reference point of being 'born a sinner' if you will and to circle back around again, then how are you to be blamed? That this is still mis-believed by so many as Ron put it "original sin" or "hereditary sin" I think it was...

You and I were born [i]into[/i] the atmosphere as it were. If I can push this to it's logical conclusion and borrow a bit from a message that I listened to last week...[url=] A Grain of Wheat[/url]

[i][b]IF[/i][/b] and a big "IF" at that, we were somehow able to be born and walk through this earth without sin, we would never die. Sure it's obvious, but to tie it in with the message I heard, the way he put it I found quite profound. If Jesus had never gone to the cross He would still be walking this earth a 2,000+ year old man.[i]"for I do always those things that please Him"[/i]" You would have to listen to the message to get the fullness out of it all.

So if anything was just trying to concur with what had already been stated here and how this verse in particular has been misused. It certainly had me perplexed for a long time trying to understand how one could hold to that and then go forward from that stand point.

(The message above is from Major Ian Thomas, here's another bit on him [url=]Ian Thomas - "Not IT but HIM"[/url] )

Mike Balog

 2005/2/26 12:40Profile

Joined: 2003/5/24
Posts: 138
Chicago IL USA


Feecd said

Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."This verse is figurative because no baby is born talking and therefore cannot speak lies at birth. If a baby is really guilty of sin then it must repent which is impossible.

Ok when I read this, It got me thinkin...

Maybe U guys can help me understand something.

QESTION!! Is it possible to sin before you where born?

My attempt to answer it is......
GOD said I knew you before you where born.
So Literal verbal communication does not mean that you can't sin.

It is a spiritual thing.

Without understanding that it is a spiritual thing you will not be able to accuse mankind of sin.

If GOD lets a Baby die and He had no chance to be forgiven Cuz he could not yet understand the Gospel that would be wrong.

cuz we all know he Needs to accept Jesus.

However, GOD in his Greatness knows the Heart of Man and whether or not he will Accept the Call.

So do all babies go to Heaven?

I got no Idea, But I know that GOD Is The Mostest Honestest Goodest Judge PERIOD<
So What is right will be done.

So there you have,When Man fell He not only condemned his Flesh but his Soul and Spirit as well.

Like to hear U guys explain this one fer me.



 2005/2/26 14:09Profile



Matt. 5:48 “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.“

1 Peter 1:16 “Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.”

John 5:14 "Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

John 8:11 "She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

1 John 5:1-4 "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loves him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith."

John 13:35 "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another."

John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commandments."

John 14:21 "He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep and obey my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

John 15:10 "If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 5:2 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."

John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son has eternal life; but he that does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

I John 2:4 "The one who says, 'I know Him' but does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

1 John 3:10 "This is how God's children and the devil's children are distinguished and made clear. No person who fails to practice righteousness and to love his brother is from God."

Matt. 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

James 1:22-25 "But be a doer of the word, and not a hearer only, deceiving your own selves. For if you are a hearer of the word, and not a doer, you are like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholds himself, and goes his way, and straightway forgets what manner of man he was. But whoso looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."

 2005/2/26 14:59

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Hi FreeCd,

Your are coming across as if those here do not believe that Christ requires obedience. It is not the end (obedience) that we disagree over, it is the means with which that obedience comes about. Christ requires obedience, but this cannot be made to mean that men take His commands and muster all their might to obey. The obedience required by our Lord is that we walk in the Spirit and fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. This is a million miles from 'trying' to be obedient. We cannot do in the arm of the flesh what can only be done by Walking in the Spirit, full of the Holy Ghost. I will attach lesson VI of The Despensation of the Gospel for you to look over.

God Bless,


Robert Wurtz II

 2005/2/26 15:11Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Robert Wurtz II

TEXT. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. (Galatians 5)

The Old Covenant was given to Israel because of the transgressions that they were committing against their own conscience. (Galatians 3:19) Every human being is born with a basic set of laws written upon their hearts with which to judge basic right and wrong. (Romans 2:15) When men refused to walk in this ‘law’ God gave them the Old Covenant and established penalties for breaking those laws. Not the entire Old Covenant dealt was teaching right and wrong; a good portion of it was laws concerning the handling of the sacrificial system. Yet, to anyone who has ever read through the Old Covenant laws they realize that no one has walked perfectly in those laws. Those laws are Spiritual and good; but we are carnal and sold under sin. (Romans 7:14) For a sinful man the law does little more than give the flesh something to rebel against. The commandment came and sin ‘revived’ within the heart of man. (Romans 7:9) In this lesson I propose to show:

I. If you are led of the Spirit you are not under the Law
II. If you are led of the Spirit you will fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law.

A. Paul asks the question; He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith. (Galatians 3:5) No one is going to see God working by trying to impose ‘law’ on folks. This is a blatant misunderstanding of the Gospel. When law comes in other than for the purpose of showing man the exceeding greatness of his sin- God resists the ministry. God will not bless legalism. The flesh produces legalism. The flesh can be defined as human nature apart from the direction and power of God. If the Holy Spirit is not back of the actions it is ‘flesh’ at best. The flesh will bring man into a state of ‘rule keeping’ that will cause him to glory for all he does that is ‘righteous.’ This gives the glory to man instead of God. When walking in the Spirit we understand that it is impossible for us in ourselves to ever live acceptably with God- as we have already found ourselves condemned and deserving of destruction. We know that unless the Holy Spirit fills us by God’s free grace we had been nothing more than wretched.

B. Jonathan Edwards writes; “If ever you truly come to Christ, you must come to him to make you better. You must come as a patient comes to his physician, with his diseases or wounds to be cured. Spread all your wickedness before him, and do not plead your goodness; but plead your badness, and your necessity on that account: and say, as the psalmist in the text (Psalm 25:11), not Pardon mine iniquity, for it is not so great as it was, but, " Pardon mine iniquity, for it is Great." This is a conscious understanding that there is nothing in us that makes us worthy of God’s grace. It is an understanding that trying to clean ourselves up before coming to God in repentance only seeks to steal the glory from God for having accepted us as vile sinners- supposing that the person who came was better than before they were ‘cleaned up.’ In fact, before God we are no more or less holy in ourselves before we cleaned up than after. We still need the same measure of mercy.

C. Walking in the Spirit is as far from legalism as the east is from the west. One seeks to please God by appearing to be clean and worthy; the other casts itself upon the mercy of God in agreement with what God has already said about our condition. Sometimes it takes weeks or months or even years before a person will finally realize that they need more than God to forgive them for a few messes they made. Sometimes a person will simply come to the realization that they are utterly helpless before God and will thrust themselves upon the greatness of His mercy. At once when this realization comes it may shock the person into a sober reality. And for the first time they will truly trust Christ for all of their salvation and not just ‘take up the slack’ or forgive the ‘loose ends.’

D. When Jesus came he began teaching things that should have made those who heard it shutter in fear. Here He came tightening down the metaphorical screws of the Law of Moses until there was none to escape. By the time he was finished saying, “You have heard it said, but I say unto you” there was none in the multitudes who could claim their innocence before God. All were condemned. For He showed them a picture of a live lived in the power of the Holy Ghost- and there was none that had walked in it- no not one. And in that state of helplessness there was nothing to do but fall upon the Rock Christ Jesus before He fell on them. Some still held out as they do today. “Oh, I can live it”- not knowing that it’s the Spirit filled walk that He is teaching. And the only way to be born of the Spirit is to first say; God there is no way I can ever live this life myself. As the Psalmist they will exclaim, “For thy name's sale, O Lord, pardon my iniquity; for it is great.” (Psalm 25:11)

II. If you are led of the Spirit you will fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law.

A. There are few things more troubling than a conscience that is overcome with guilt. Yet, God wants His children to walk before Him with a clear conscience- free from conscious sin. This sounds radical and impossible to those who have been browbeaten by the flesh, the world, and the Devil. The mere mention of it only adds to the accusations of the accuser. Yet again as Edwards writes: “You need not be at all the more fearful of coming because of your sins, let them be ever so black. If you had as much guilt lying on each of your souls as all the wicked men in the world, and all the damned souls in hell; yet if you come to God for mercy, sensible of your own vileness, and seeking pardon only through the free mercy of God in Christ, you would not need to be afraid; the greatness of your sins would be no impediment to your pardon. Therefore, if your souls be burdened, and you are distressed for fear of hell, you need not bear that burden and distress any longer. If you are but willing, you may freely come and unload yourselves, and cast all your burdens on Christ, and rest in him.”

B. Perhaps you have never known victory in your life because you never came to the place where you realized it could not be done in the flesh? Maybe you see the Gospels as a set of rules that all Christians are to set out to obey with all their might! Yet, the Gospels are not an addendum to the 613 Laws of the Old Testament, they are the outward working of people who have so trusted Christ for salvation that He has filled them with His Spirit by grace and they walk in that way full of faith, hope, and joy. Most of all they are driven by the love of the Spirit that fills a persons very being who have come to the Lord so broken. The enemy so hates this estate because of the utter peace with God that such a sinner saved by grace enjoys. He seeks to accuse them, but now there is no condemnation to them. None whatsoever. They have been justified freely by His grace and walk in the Spirit free from the condemnation of the Law.

C. When you realize that the enormity of your sin has been greater than you could have possibly imagined you would know of assurity that there is none but grace to save. When you fall from the weakness of the flesh into the steadfastness of the grace wherein we stand you will rejoice in hope of the Glory of God. The enemy is in a rage at such a notion. For he has spent his numbered days pointing out all the sins of man bringing vex upon the soul and anguish of mind upon the multitudes. Having accused the Saints day and night… God answers; “There is now no condemnation…”

D. How much condemnation is NO condemnation? Is it a little bit? Is it a measurable amount? Is it enough to loose sleep over? Is it enough to make us feel timid in the presence of God? Just how much condemnation is NO condemnation? What other rule have we, by which to judge of such matters than God’s revealed word? When we pretend to go further in our determinations than the word of God, Satan takes us up, and leads us into despair. Soon we mistake his accusations for Holy Ghost conviction and the result is ‘feelings’ of condemnation. What are ‘feelings’ in light of God’s revealed word? What reason can you give for them, if you have no word of God to base them on? Is it because you cannot see how the mercy of God is sufficient to pardon, or the blood of Christ to cleanse from ALL sin? If so, it is because you never yet saw how great the mercy of God is; you never saw the sufficiency of the blood of Christ, and you know not how far the virtue of it extends.

E. You will ask; what about holiness? God will bless holiness, but holiness is simply this: people walking in the Spirit. That is it- nothing more and nothing less. It is people full of the Holy Ghost living out their life as the Holy Ghost directs them and under no condemnation. When the Holy Ghost prompts you to do something- you do it. When He 'checks' you NOT to do something- you don't do it. When HE puts His finger on something deal with it. The Spirit and the word always agree. How can a person walk in Christian perfection? There is no other way than to walk in the Spirit.


Can legalism save anyone? Only a life walking in the power of the Holy Spirit will suffice. George Whitefield writes: “I would humbly hope that you are sincerely persuaded, that he who hath not the Spirit of Christ is none of his; and that, unless the Spirit, which raised Jesus from the dead, dwell in you here, neither will your mortal bodies be quickened by the same Spirit to dwell with him hereafter.”

Walking in the Spirit is a life lived in the power of the Holy Ghost. This power comes as we are daily filled with His Spirit and empowered to mortify the deeds of the flesh. This is a far cry from legalism. This is the Spirit filled life that fulfills the righteous requirements of the Law and emulates the person of Jesus Christ as laid out in the four Gospels. This is the essence of the Good News of man’s salvation; that God the Holy Spirit would come into a cleansed Temple that had been set free from sin through the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross and empowered to walk in His resurrection power.

Holiness movements are always in danger of falling into legalism when people’s consciousness of God begins to dwindle. When this happens someone starts making up lots of rules about how long the shirt sleeves are and the like in order to try and retain what was once there. It becomes legalism. This is a vicious cycle. God begins to resist this activity as folk who had begun in the Spirit are now trying to perfect themselves by the flesh. What is the solution for these times? Walk that valley seeking the Lord in faith until He rains down the Holy Ghost again. Don’t try to be the Holy Ghost.

What is a believer to do in their Christian walk? Simple; do what the Holy Ghost is convicting you to do from the moment you turn to Him in faith and repentance. God will bring things to the surface for you to deal with from time to time. You may be walking along and GOD will bring something to your remembrance that you need to work out. Will you do what God is telling you? You will stand each time "at the beginning of it all" and have to choose what you will do. This is the road of perfection- and it is that of maintaining a clear conscience between God and us.

If our heart condemns us we need to repent, confess the sin, and forsake it. Holy Ghost conviction will always lead to God for the good of our relationship with Him; an accusation from the accuser will always make you want to flee from God. Satan can accuse us, but only God can convict us. Condemnation is the result of the enemies accusations as they weigh on our minds and hearts; but we must remember that only God can truly condemn us. Our heart will condemn us if we know there is something between God and us. Make it right with Him! Do not delay! Keep your conscience clear before God.

Robert Wurtz II

 2005/2/26 15:13Profile

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