SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : Can we obey God or not??????????

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 Next Page )
PosterThread
JoeFrank
Member



Joined: 2005/2/14
Posts: 11


 Re:






Howdy do

Ok here is the thing it is possible in the past.
To Obey and still have the Flesh disobey.

I.E. Paul says in Romans..7ish, that with his mind he wants to obey God however his sinful body does not obey. He goes on to say something like.... So now who will save me from this sinful flesh, Thanks be to Jesus for he will save me.... Then he says something like, The Holy Spirit now makes it possible to Obey GOD.

See GOD stopped dealing with the Flesh on Calvary,
U gots to Remember the Words Our Master Spoke.
"It is Finished"
The Old Covenant is finished.
Dat means that in the past God !!dealt!! with man in the Flesh, and in doing so put up with allot of !ignorance! and his wrath had to be satisfied.........See Noah, See Sodom and Gomorrah, See Egypt, See the 400 priest of Balam,See Cain.

Add to your thought also that Old Test Good Guys Were being Judged by the Law, and before Moses the Law of Consience... Also add a dash of Cain and Able... They were Sacrificing even back then.
Dats 2nd Generation Human and they new they had to Sacrifice.

However Now we got a New Rule and that Rule is that JESUS Paid the Price for Our sins.

So now GOD Deals with us in a different way, Yeah that’s right a Different Way.

Now He Abides IN US, we do not have to Look at a Temple of God, or make Sacrifices for Sin.


Ok to sum up..
Old Testament "Obey" is Flesh Striving to be good, and failing. So I want to do Good but I can't... and GOD Understood that.

Connection was Long Distance.

New Testament "Obey" is JESUS Living IN YOU and me and the Flesh(Law) is not in the Equation any more.

Connection is Spiritual that's closer than Face 2 Face man... WoW!!! I just thought about that...

Hope that helps Bro


Good Point AoW

 2005/2/25 23:47Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: At any given point in time we either are in obedience to God or we are not.

Quote:

freecd wrote:
Just because we have all sinned does not mean that we CAN NOT obey. We always have a choice to make.

How can we be truly guilty without actually choosing to disobey?



Welcome to the inside of my head :cry:. The questions you are raising, are really the only questions that should be asked, as everything else comes back to these questions. Guilt is impossible without choice. Otherwise the guilt would be on the one one made the choice for us, and we would be inocent.

For me, the answer to this issue begins with the statement, "99% truth = 100% lie". Each of Satan's lies, recorded in scrpiture, were made up of truthful statments. However, the arrangement of the order these statments, made them a lie.

Finney defined a lie by saying:
Quote:

Any species of designed deception for a selfish reason is lying. If the deception is not a design it is not lying. But if you design to make an impression contrary to the naked truth, you lie.



In the same way 99% obedience = 100% disobedience. Just because you got away with it, or were excused for the action, doesn't mean innocence. Likewise a life spent 99% obeying God, is a life 100% disobedient to God. A simple perusal of 1 Cor 13:1-3 and Matt 7:21-23 shows that a life spent doing the "things that please God" without the proper motivation, "profits nothing", and result in us being nothing but "sounding brass", "tinkling cymbals", and in effect "nothing" period, in the sight of God, whose top priority is the we know Him, as He is, and are known by Him.

The problem is self. Self aweness, self importance, self involvement, self rule, etc. This is where the fall fits in. The issue of the fall is one of selfishness and the intial presentation of it by Satan. Where we begin to understand choice: That choice has to involve the ability to choose evil and something else. The two trees were "Life" (truth, obedience) and "Knowledge of Good and Evil" (death, lie, selfishness). To choose evil, results in our choices being between two evils, one overtly evil, and another which seems good. The only way to bring good back into the equation, is to return to the first choice we blew, and rectify it. That choice, is always the choice of selfishness.

That is why in ourselves, we can do no good thing. The only "good thing" we can actually do, in "call on His name", to submit our selfishness to Him. This was first done, by Enosh (Gen 4:26) only two generations from Adam. This is also the way the OT and the NT saints fused together. This submission of self, always involves a sacrifice, of one to bear the guilt of the other. In the Kingdom of God, there is zero tolerance for disention, and someone has to bear the deserved death.

OT saints ignorantly sacrificed animals, according to Devine perscription, as a recognition of God's deliverance, in Jesus. NT saints (us included) lean on the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus. But in both cases, the sacrifice is worthless, without a "calling upon His name". Neither is the calling of any value, without the recognition of the sacrifice being for us (ie, recognising our guilt).

Now we begin to realise, that obedience is about doing what God requires, and in the event of choosing our will over His, righting the wrong done by the only means perscribed. Calling on His Name, and trusting in His atoning sacrice. When we come to God on these terms, we realise that in us there is "no good thing" and not only that, there never will be. The moment we consider ourselves to be "good", we begin to idolise ourselves, and have no need to depend on God.

This is what separates the true saint (one who is), from the "phraseological" saint (one who pretends). The first comprehends the fact that God is the only one with the ability to live a obedient life through us (Gal 2:20), because impossible for any of his choices to be obedient ones without dependance on Him. The second either thinks that he can do things to serve God (in spite on Acts 17:25), or that it doesn't matter what he does, because God forgives Him.

The only true obedience is wholehearted dependance on God, and 99% "wholehearted obedient" is 100% self dependancy. So in answer to the question, "Can we obey God or not?", no we can't. However, God can make anyone obedient who is wholey dependant on Him.

For futher exploration on this subjest, check out Righteous Submission vs Zealous Obedience to Principle.
For anyone who wants a scriptural refernce for this statement, Gen 1:1-Rev 22:21 :-P.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2005/2/26 0:50Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Guilt is impossible without choice.


I believe this is true. For decades I have wanted to register as a member of the British Evangelical Alliance, but my belief in this excludes me. The Intervarsities Christian Fellowships in the UK also exclude those who, consciously, believe this.

A few months ago I was scheduled to speak at two meetings at Reading University. Two days before the first I had an email saying that I would have to sign their doctrinal statement. Theirs and the evangelical alliance's statement both include the notion that I acquired 'quilt' through Adam's sin. I do not believe this and could not sign; they cancelled my speaking appointments. Over the years my conviction that we do not acquire 'guilt' from Adam's sin has been costly to me.

So much for my credentials. I do NOT believe that the human race has acquired 'guilt' as a result of Adam's sin. I hope I make my position clear. :-D Greg has some of my messages on this site. If you listen to Justification you will hear my reasons for rejecting the notion that guilt is imputed to the race as a result of sin. Guilt is a technical and legal word. It has nothing to do with the way I feel or the way I perceive my own sin. It has to do with 'blame-worthiness'. A man will only be held to account for that for which he is 'blame-worthy'; gulty. This is forensic language and consistent in its use in the scriptures. The man against whom an accusation could not be proved was declared 'justified'. The man against whom an accusation was proven was then sentenced and the sentence carried out. Listen to "Justification" and see if you agree with me.

But Adam's sin opened the door for SIN to enter our race. This has nothing at all to do with 'guilt'. We are not acounted 'guilty' in scriptures for Adam's sin, but as a result of Adam's sin "SIN" entered. It was not 'created' by Adam's sin, it gained 'access' through Adam's sin. These distinctions are vital to this discussion. Please note again how carefully God gives us this revelation.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Rom 5:12 KJV)
'entered' is eiserchomai. erchomai is 'to come', eis is 'into; We are being told that
'by one man Sin (and it has a definite article) entered into the (world) cosmos. Please think through what we are being told here. Adam did not 'create' sin, the Bible says he opened a door for it. Look at the room in which you are sitting. You entered into that room through a door. You did not create yourself when you entered. You pre-existed before you entered. Sin pre-dates the human race. One of the pedantic reasons I don't like the phrase 'original sin' is because Adam's sin was not the 'original sin'. Sin is older than Adam.

Rom 5:12 says 'Death passed upon all men'. This does not do justice to the verb or the preposition. The verb is 'dierchomai'; that's 'erchomai' again but this time with the preposition 'dia' meaning 'through'. Death 'transversed' to all men. This is one of the reasons I don't like the phrase 'Hereditary Sin'; the emphasis is not passing 'down' but 'through'. In a moment of time, the Aorist tense is used throughout, 'sin entered the cosmos' and 'death transversed the human race'. Adam was the human race.

I do not believe that God holds me 'guilty' for Adam's sin, but Adam's sin allowed SIN to pass into the human race. I am not 'guilty' of Adam's infringement but I have suffered the consequences of Adam opening the door to sin. In my human-ness I was 'begotten in his own likeness' Gen 5:3. This is why forgiveness, although a great joy, does not change me. I still have the same Adamic-spirit; his spiritual 'genes' if you like. This is why I need and why God provides 're-gene-ration.



_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/2/26 4:46Profile
Spitfire
Member



Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re:

Quote:
Now we begin to realise, that obedience is about doing what God requires, and in the event of choosing our will over His, righting the wrong done by the only means perscribed. Calling on His Name, and trusting in His atoning sacrice. When we come to God on these terms, we realise that in us there is "no good thing" and not only that, there never will be.


Aaron, your entire post was so good. I am living this. This is what has changed my Christian walk from one of frustration to one of victory. I struggle to put it into words, but you did a great job.
I always come to God now, knowing that apart from him I can do nothing, but in him I can do it all. There's never anything in me that takes credit for any "success", because I know it wasn't me who succeeded. It was God. I feel completely able to live the Christian life now, because I know that I cannot do it. Does that make sense? I feel so, so, so freeeeee. That may not sound very edgecated, but it's for real. Love, Dian.

 2005/2/26 5:46Profile









 Re:

From THE NATURE OF SIN By Winkie Pratney

Sin is not UNAVOIDABLE - One of the favorite heresies of the past, that is rapidly now becoming the favorite heresy of the present, is the lie of Antinomianism - that men cannot do what God expressly REQUIRES them to do; and therefore they may live how they like and still enter the Kingdom of God. In the midst of the greatest moral landslide the world has ever seen, in the midst of the most flagrant disrespect for law and order and government of any century, it is unblushingly proclaimed AS GOSPEL truth from pulpits across the nation that man cannot keep the law of God! In our wariness of the dangers of legalism, we have forgotten the perils of antinomianism; we have forgotten that the LAW is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24) and that "by the LAW is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20). Gone is the preaching of moral responsibility that streamed from men like William Booth, George Fox, John Wesley and Charles Finney that made men weep with conviction; gone is the heartbreak of the Psalmist for the honor of God when he cried "Horror has taken hold of me, because of the wicked that forsake Thy law!" (Psalm 119:53; 119:37).

Many sincere men are saying, "God gave us good laws to keep," and in the next breath saying, "we are actually unable to keep them!" If this is true, then God's laws ARE NOT GOOD! No law is good that asks the impossible of its subjects. If God demands obedience to impossible laws then God is not just, for even men do not require obedience to impossible laws. If God demands such obedience under penalty of DEATH, then God is not only unfair, but monstrous What kind of Being would pass laws upon his subjects they are unable to keep, then condemn them to death for their failure to obey. This is a blasphemy on God's character.

The Bible expressly declares that God has given good laws. All the laws of God are based on the one great Law of love, that governs the actions of all moral beings in God's Universe - that every moral creature should unselfishly choose the highest good of God and His Universe according to their real, relative values; God's being greatest, first of all; then all others in the order of their true value under God. The Ten Commandments are just the letter expression of that law, given when men began to ignore the love law written on their hearts. They define man's obligations God ward in the first three commandments, then those of his obligations to his fellow-men in the last seven. The Lord Jesus summed these in His two commandments (Matthew 22:36-40; Mark 12:28-3 3; Luke 10:25-28) covering what Moses had already been given (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Paul summed up the law into the one basic word "love" (Romans 13:8-10; Galatians 5:14; 1 Timothy 1:5; James 2:8-10). This law, expressed in different ways, is given as the unchangeable condition of happiness and holiness; it defines man's obligations and can never be changed or suspended in our present relationships (Galatians 3:19; Psalm 19:7; Matthew 5:17; Romans 7:12; 1 Timothy 1:8).

Which of God's laws are we actually UNABLE to keep - if we love the Lawgiver! Do we have to relegate God to some other position than King of our lives and put something else in His place? Do we have to take His Name in vain? Must we steal? What man has ever been born that could not help BUT murder? Do we have no choice but to commit adultery, to lie, to covet, to dishonor parents and refuse to honor God on a special day of rest? God says "His commandments are NOT grievous". Do WE say they are not only grievous but impossible? The Lord Jesus said - "My yoke is easy and My burden is light".

Do WE say His yoke is not only HEAVY, but completely unbearable for any human being?

No saint in Scripture thought they were "unable" to keep God's laws. Moses didn't (Exodus 24:3; Deuteronomy 5:1; 6:24-25; 10:12-13; 11:22; 26:16-19; 28:47; 28:58-59; 30:8; 30:11-14). Neither did Joshua (22:5), Ezra (7:23-26), David (Psalm 19:7; 40:8), his psalmist friend (Psalm 119:165-168) or Daniel (9:9-11) or others! (2 Kings 17:13,7-18, etc.). The Lord Jesus Himself told men to obey His Father's laws, and that this was the test of being a true disciple (Matthew 5:17-20; 19:17; John 14:15,21; 14:23-24; 15:10). The Apostle John stresses this obedience (1 John 2:3-6; 3:18-22). Obeying God's love law simply means living for Him with no selfish interest; to live up to all the light you have with all the effort of will, mind and feeling necessary for the task in hand. For the Christian, obeying God and keeping His commandments are a natural part of his new life. Only the sinner finds it hard to walk in God's ways because he is trying to use the law as a means to his own end. the ultimate satisfaction of his own selfishness. He must fall.

 2005/2/26 7:47
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Head Space

Aaron,

Have you been studying or what? :-)

Only a quick meddling, two that came to mind:
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1667&forum=34#10549]The Spirit of Truth - Art Katz & Paul Volk[/url]

Might be worth dredging up again...

The other, snatched from the diary of OC and a letter to a friend of his and his wife;

[i]What we are is of much more use to God and our fellows than what we do. ‘Consider the lilies’ said Jesus our Lord. That is, do not get the ‘actuality’ fever; I mean this satanic idea of doing something. Be something ever as you are. I send you again John 14![/i]

Oswald Chambers
Abandoned to God.

I lied, one more...

Quote:
I feel completely able to live the Christian life now, because I know that I cannot do it. Does that make sense?


Perfect sense!


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/2/26 8:22Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Spitfire wrote:
I feel completely able to live the Christian life now, because I know that I cannot do it. Does that make sense?



Crystal clear Dian, crystal clear.:-)

Quote:

FreeCD wrote:
For the Christian, obeying God and keeping His commandments are a natural part of his new life. Only the sinner finds it hard to walk in God's ways because he is trying to use the law as a means to his own end. the ultimate satisfaction of his own selfishness. He must fall.


Ahh...Youth Aflame, I wouldn't be here now without that book :cry:. That's the crux of the problem, even considering the fact the we can have our own ends, that's the tragedy. Ever noticed that the closer you get to Jesus, the further from God you feel?
Quote:

crssck wrote:
Only a quick meddling, two that came to mind:
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1667&forum=34#10549]The Spirit of Truth[/url] - Art Katz & Paul Volk

Might be worth dredging up again...


I don't think think I'll ever been the same as I was before readin this book. :-? That and [url=http://www.benisrael.org/OnlineBooks/apostolic_foundations/af_contents.htm]Apostolic Foundations[/url]. What can I say? anyone for an upheaval?


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2005/2/26 8:46Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Making perfect sense

This ought to be the post to direct to, in our understanding of just what sin is and how it applies to us.

I am just soaking this all in. Ron, and this article brought out from Freecd...

This came to mind as well;

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, [b]their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another[/b];)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

So much to draw from here...

How about pulling this into the equation;
(Actually two...)

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and [b]in[/b] sin did my mother conceive me.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The first it seems to be dawning on me now is in 'status' as to how things 'are'...
Does that make sense?

Perhaps someone can flesh that out...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/2/26 8:59Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
How about pulling this into the equation;
(Actually two...)

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and [b]in[/b] sin did my mother conceive me.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The first it seems to be dawning on me now is in 'status' as to how things 'are'...
Does that make sense?

Perhaps someone can flesh that out...


In "Youth Aflame", Pratney mentions that Ps 51:5, could be refering to David's illegitamate birth (as some have speculated). Not sure about Ps 58:3, and not sure if I agree with Pratney either:-).


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2005/2/26 9:18Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Still chewing

Oh you have to be quick sometimes but the old "Random Article" just threw out;

"And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people...and I am come down to deliver them..."

(Exod. 3:7-8).

We all have some weak point in our character. When we would go forward, it drags us back, and when we would rise up into higher spheres of usefulness and the atmosphere of heaven, something drags us down. Now I have no sympathy with the idea that God puts us behind the blood and saves us, and then leaves us in Egypt to be under the old taskmaster. I believe God brings us out of Egypt into the promised land, and that it is the privilege of every child of God to be delivered from every foe, from every besetting sin.

If there is some sin that is getting the mastery over you, you certainly cannot be useful. You certainly cannot bring forth fruit to the honor and glory of God until you get self-control. "He that ruleth his spirit is better than he that taketh a city." If we haven't got victory over jealousy and worldly amusements and worldly pleasure, if we are not delivered from all these things, we are not going to have power with God or with men, and we are not going to be as useful as we might be if we got deliverance from every evil. There isn't an evil within or without but what He will deliver us from if we will let Him. That is what He wants to do. As God said to Moses, "I have come down to deliver." If He could deliver three million slaves from the hands of the mightiest monarch on earth, don't you think He can deliver us from every besetting sin, and give us complete victory over ourselves, over our temper, over our dispositions, over our irritableness and peevishness and snappishness? If we want it and desire it above everything else, we can get victory.

Delivered From Sin
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=11] D.L. Moody[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/2/26 9:25Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy