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staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Bearmaster,
You no right well that Jesus will not give permission for such a thing!Jesus would not give permission for demons to enter anyone believer or non believer
Lets look at what we both can agree on(i think)
A-Demons can inhabit animals who are only body and mind
b-From the two demon possessed men we can say that demons can inhabit non believers who are body,mind and spirit.
c-The demons needed permission to go into the pigs

The follow through of my logic would not mean that demons would need permission to enter a believer if-
A-A believer had the demon before they were saved
b-If a believer gets involved in some sin that they shouldnt and leave a way in for the demon.
The demons had no Jurisdiction to enter the pigs thats why they asked permission.We can give demons jurisdiction by habitual sin.The demon only asked permission because he was been cast out it is a different situation than a believers un christ like behaviour.
I agree with you that the man was not a believer when he was possessed that is not in question.The fact though that the scripture comments about they been in "right mind " shows that the demon was inhabiting his mind.

A couple of Questions-In what way did the demons enter the the two men?
b.Does the scripture show you that the demons can possess a body and mind?

Your Staff

 2012/9/30 17:34Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Again Bearmaster,
Quote
----------------------------------------------------
I think this thread is suggesting demons can inhabit a believer's mind and body.
-----------------------------------------------------
Thats exactly right especially if the person had a demon or demons before they were saved
Yours Staff

 2012/9/30 17:43Profile









 Re: PIGS HAVE NO SPIRIT!

Quote:
Hi Again Bearmaster,
Quote
----------------------------------------------------
I think this thread is suggesting demons can inhabit a believer's mind and body.
-----------------------------------------------------
Thats exactly right especially if the person had a demon or demons before they were saved
Yours Staff



Can I ask you Staff why you believe that having been possessed prior to getting saved constitutes ground for demons seeking to re-inhabit the believer?

 2012/9/30 19:08
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Amrkelly,

Now I can only speak from experience and not from scripture but with some Christians that although we are saved don't change the way we live and dont give up our sins straightaway or in some cases it is years before we begin to live Godly lives.We leave our selves open for demon activity.I also think it depends on the type of demon you had.Some sins are just hard to beat.Some of us need longer sifting than others.I am in that section of believers.
We were saved,We are being saved and we will be saved.
We were saved when Christ came into our lives and we became born again,we are being saved daily (that includes learning how to live godly lives) and we will ultimately be saved when Christ comes back or we die.
If you didnt have a demon before you were saved it appears easier to change to be the person Jesus wants us to be.
I hope that answers your question,
Yours Staff

 2012/9/30 19:39Profile









 Re: PIGS HAVE NO SPIRIT!

Quote:
Now I can only speak from experience and not from scripture but with some Christians that although we are saved don't change the way we live and don’t give up our sins straightaway or in some cases it is years before we begin to live Godly lives. We leave our selves open for demon activity. I also think it depends on the type of demon you had. Some sins are just hard to beat. Some of us need longer sifting than others. I am in that section of believers.
We were saved, we are being saved and we will be saved.
We were saved when Christ came into our lives and we became born again, we are being saved daily (that includes learning how to live godly lives) and we will ultimately be saved when Christ comes back or we die.
If you didn’t have a demon before you were saved it appears easier to change to be the person Jesus wants us to be.
I hope that answers your question,
Yours Staff



Yes it is a good answer and honestly stated. The idea that a person can be born again and not change fills me with concern; yet I do believe that how we are saved; in what circumstances; and through the ministry of what kind of preacher or witness may all determine just what we are able to believe beyond the simplicity of the Gospel so as to walk by faith after we are saved. It is better to present the full gospel without trying to save someone ourselves and trust The Holy Spirit to bring true conviction and repentance to a lost soul, than to seek to persuade by psychological or natural reason. It becomes a numbers game when we neglect this truth. Christ will not deny Himself we reason and so we set about to catch as many fish as we can boast in; neglecting to see that the net is filled with fish which must be thrown back before they can be brought into the boat permanently. It is argued that only God can fill the net, and this is true because even when God gives the increase not all of the fish will respond with a sincere repentance. Yet it is possible to fill the net deliberately and falsely which may explain why so much demonic activity is hidden in the branches of the church today.

Clearly some believers have a real difficult time in accepting that demons can directly influence the lives of saints. I have spent all day thinking about the instances when I have been involved in a deliverance which has centred on a believer; or else an instance where a believer was definitely the object of demonic activity by discernment as well as in visibility. I have seen a number of so-called deliverances and at the time was fully persuaded that it was all just confusion and flesh. I can only think of two examples as well as one other which I believed and discerned had real substance. The one came about by a sister telephoning my former preaching partner some 27 years ago, asking for help with her husband. Martin my minister friend called me and we drove to the house this brother had been taken to. As I walked down the drive way I could see into the house and as I approached the front door I saw this brother who I knew well looking through the door with a look of real fear and anguish. The first thing we were told was that he had been exposing himself to the children in this household from the moment he had arrived; hence the call. In the end although I definitely could see that he was disturbed in his mind and that his sympathetic nervous system was running wild, I could not discern or believe that he was possessed. There was no doubt that he was being attacked in his mind and I also discerned that the ground for it was related to his being a physical education teacher at a private girl’s school. There was also a discernible presence of an unclean spirit.

The second case I can think of was much simpler. I was praying with three men two who were believers and one who thought he was or claimed he was a believer but in truth he was not a believer. I decided to lay hands on these men to bless them and pray for them individually and as I moved towards the unbeliever The Holy Spirit warned me with a command not to lay hands on him. I disobeyed and in an instant I saw an unclean spirit move through the air and alight onto one of the other two men. Both of them were believers. The demon, having been taken by surprise, and having been hidden and still, reacted fearfully and fled to the nearest person. That brother to whom the demon fled looked at me straight in the eyes and I realised that he knew something had happened. Apart from the fact that I was ashamed of what I had done I was troubled and concerned for the brother who was offended. I have to say that although this experience was shocking and troubling I did not believe that he had been possessed. I dealt with the problem in prayer an hour or so later until I received peace regarding this brothers well-being. I also repented of my foolishness and pride.

These are the only two instances where I have witnessed any visible and discernible activity of a demonic nature involving believers. I have in contrast witnessed many instances of clear demonic activity with unbelievers.

As I am writing, it comes to mind that there is one real distinction which I can make. I have heard many things spoken in churches by believers which were clearly the fruit of demons. Things which amounted to a denial of the faith in such a way that it was possible to hear the lie clearly; yet although these things were spoken and discernible as false, they did not give rise to an actual discernment of an unclean spirit nor were they supported by a demonic visibility. I am reminded of those who accused Jesus of having a demon because He revealed that they wanted to kill Him (John 7:20). Perhaps this is the most difficult demonic influence to “prove”. Of the many times I have questioned preaching in this way I have never once received a good reply or response. It is remarkable that Jesus did not rebuke them, but said “you marvel that I showed you one thing”. It is almost as if Jesus is commending them for having the sense to recognise that He was able to reveal their hearts. The fact that they denied it of course was to be expected. Yet the Lord did not hide Himself from them for this blasphemy. Directly after this Jesus cried out in the temple and declared Himself openly. It is written “and after these things many in the crowd believed in Him”.

I still say that the only remedy for demonic activity is Christ Himself. Either to walk in Him or else to preach Him.

 2012/9/30 21:37
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: I think this thread is suggesting demons can inhabit a believer's mind and body

Okay so a Christian goes along to one of these “Toronto blessing type meetings” and they get prayed for and start acting drunk, laughing uncontrollably, roaring like lions making animal noises.

So what has entered into these “believers” to cause them to act this ways? Didn't they willing go forward to receive this "blessing" and gave the spirit behind it the legal right to enter?


_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/10/1 6:20Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7476
Mississippi

 Re:

Ok, I have not read through this thread and perhaps someone else shared this scripture so please pardon me if I am repeating a concept shared elsewhere.

Anyhow.

As I read through this segment of this thread, my mind went to the following verses, so I am sharing this for your consideration.

Matthew 12:43-45 NASB:

43“Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it.

44“Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came’; and when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order.

45“Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.”


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2012/10/1 12:09Profile









 Re: PIGS HAVE NO SPIRIT!

Quote:
As I read through this segment of this thread, my mind went to the following verses, so I am sharing this for your consideration.

Matthew 12:43-45 NASB:

43“Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it.

44“Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came’; and when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order.

45“Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.” GinnyRose.



This passage of Scripture falls in towards the end of Matthew chapter 12. The whole of chapter 12 is generational in its character and the generations are those of Israel. This chapter begins with the Law of Moses and ends with Jesus own family being spoken of. There is also in verse 27 a reference to the disciples being “sons” of Israel casting out demons.

Jonah is mentioned and Nineveh as well as the Queen of the South seeking out the Wisdom of Solomon, and they are said to be judges against “this generation”. Just as the “sons” are become judges also. The generation being spoken off is the Generation into which Jesus Himself was born. The chapter also lays a basis of hope for the gentiles, yet it is primarily to do with exposing the condition of the generation Jesus had come to. The Pharisees are the focus of the Lord’s rebukes, but it is “this generation” which is said to be wicked and adulteress. This chapter also is the point in time when the unpardonable sin is committed by the Pharisees. Hereafter Jesus spoke in parables. The latter reference to the Lord own family produces a final setting for understanding that as a result of rejection, only those who followed and believed in Christ would be hence forth called “My mother and My brothers”.

The verses which deal with the house being cleaned are a reference to Christ having delivered everyone who came to Him from demonic or unclean spirits (v 15). It is on this point that the Pharisees blasphemed the Holy Spirit. So its importance is clearly visible. The house which is swept clean is Israel itself. The demoniac in Gerasenes were left in their right mind, but were not allowed to go with Christ. Many in Israel were delivered in this way, yet it was many in Israel that in the end cried out “crucify Him”. There end was indeed worse afterwards than before. Whilst Jesus ministered it was largely the Pharisees who sought to kill Him. It was also the Pharisees who answered the many times it was asked “could this be the Christ” by the people. The people were largely willing to believe in Jesus as the Christ, but the Pharisees were largely unwilling to believe. In the end the people and not the Pharisees had the last say as to whether Jesus would be crucified. Their end was indeed proven to be worse than there beginning.

Is it possible to carry this meaning to “our” generation? Only if we preach the gospel as Christ Himself preached with wisdom, power and mercy. Perhaps this hope will become the defining reality of “our” generation. I certainly hope so. I believe it will be so. Then this generation will also be left without an excuse so that in the end it will be comprehended that God is just when He brings judgement upon the world. It will also mean that the saints will have an opportunity to dress in readiness. In this context, we are become as Israel and like Israel we will no doubt run after signs and wonders and in the end reject the true blessing when it comes because we will not have a mind to follow Christ Himself, preferring the many foolish things we have made our idols. We also will be left without excuse. Some no doubt will truly dress in readiness. May God have mercy.

 2012/10/1 14:32
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Murrcolr,
Let me say I dont consider the Toronto Blessing is from the lord.
Well in my opinion it must be demonic deception of some kind.
The carry on is not of man or god.
Whether this spirit is a false spirit outpoured or possessing them I just dont know,
The majority of them are Christian that is an important thing to remember,
Yours Staff

 2012/10/1 16:51Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi all,
Just commenting on permission.The demons needed permission to enter the pigs but the unclean spirit in Mark 9.25 didnt need permission to come back and enter into the mans daughter.We know this because Jesus forbid them to go back.It appears that their was some reason that the demons had jurisdiction to go back,

Quote from Bearmaster earlier
............................................................
First the demons had to have the permission if Jesus to enter the pigs.
............................................................
Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly gathering, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You deaf and mute spirit, I command you, come out of him and do not enter him again."
Yours Staff

 2012/10/1 17:31Profile





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