| Re: Watchman Nee|
In "The Spiritual Man", Watchman Nee compiled the experiences of the saints in his time of warfare with the enemy. He layed out scripture and truths discovered by the church in China about this subject. Though a Christian cannot be possessed by the evil one, demons can have access to the facilities of our mind and will if we open a door to them. Paul referred to it as a "foothold". Deception, a passive will or mind and sin can allow demons a foothold. The use of "latched onto" is not a bad way of describing this. I highly recommend this book.
| 2012/9/29 21:27||Profile|
| Re: PIGS HAVE NO SPIRIT!|
Hi again and thanks for the replys,
But isnt it just the same old rhetoric?. Instead of dealing with scripture concerned we just reel off scripture and scripture that dont answer the post.
1.Can an animal who doesnt have a spirit be possessed by a demon?
2.Can a demon possess a body and mind?
Im sorry but it still confuses me. What exactly do these demons do, after I "give them ground"?
"Reckon yourselves indeed dead to sin but alive to God in Christ"
There is a real work that has been done by God and I am encouraged to keep that in mind, that it would be of faith. Flesh cannot control flesh, that is the need for a new nature.
"Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God, but you are not controlled by the flesh but by the Spirit..." Steve.
May The Lord Himself keep us in His peace.
Yes an animal can be possessed by spirits! In witchcraft they are called familiar assistants. These animals can be given names, ranks and titles depending on the level of cooperation between the unclean spirit and the witch or sorcerer. The reason why the black cat in our culture, or particular snakes in African cultures, as well as birds and even dogs in south Asian cultures, are regarded as unlucky if they enter you home uninvited or else cross your path is a reflection of this reality. The one seeing the "animal" is reminded that it is a familiar, and therefore an unclean spirit may be gathering intelligence to communicate back to its human master; this may be regarded as unfortunate to the one who realises they have been observed. This whole process of grooming an animal may take several years, until it is capable of being passive enough to allow the possession without being mentally ill affected. The preceding agreement between Satan or else the demon directly, by the witch or sorcerer, stems from the ability of the man or woman to resist being possessed themselves. Hence if they cannot resist they become so possessed that they start to take on a physiognomic countenance which gives them away too easily. Demons always drive a person if they can. Indeed they are always inclined to outright wickedness having been given over to it without self-restraint. It is Satans own driving which presses the demons into circumstances and situations requiring of them that they act in a particular way for a purpose. If an animal is un-groomed for this purpose by a man or woman the animal itself will react with sheer terror as its mind is overcome and its limited intelligence is overwhelmed. This is what happened to the herd of pigs when Legion (5000) spirits went into them.
There are several basis and singular characteristics of demons. They cannot abide to be in the air for any length of time because they having had their bodies removed in judgement continuously desire to have a physical substance to express themselves in for their own contentment. They almost always act with as little visibility as possible, hence why they are terrified of believers who by the Holy Spirit can discern them and drive them out. If they are given ground to safely make an open display they will mostly oblige. Many believers having made a ministry which is no ministry at all, have simple through pride and vanity walked right into this trap and many testimonies of deliverance are fearful and disturbing to those who witness these things themselves. It ought not to be this way. Demons are totally subject to Christ, and that means Christ in a believer, by the Holy Spirit as well. Having discerned them they are easily dealt with in the most part and this can be done without any reference to them at all. They are cowards and cowardly, knowing only what it means to be driven or else to drive. They vary in strength of mind and intelligence; this being the only basis of their operation physically. Without anothers body be it cat, lion, or a man they have no physical abilities whatsoever. Those who practise sorcery and witchcraft effectively, perversely take pride in their knowledge and in keeping with that knowledge (which is called Familiar Knowledge as well as Hidden or Occult Knowledge) these same perverse man and women often begin to make an outward show of their abilities for the express purpose of causing as much subjugation through fear as it is possible to achieve. These people are enlarged by their activities and almost always fall into pride and visibility. Satan uses this outward show, but these same men and women often end up completely losing their own minds and destroy themselves or fall victim to extreme violence. Many take their own lives because Satan abandons them to the consequences of their own wickedness. This whole business is tragic and very sad. Most people who play with this knowledge simply end up scaring themselves after which they put it behind them.
When Judas Iscariot heard the words which to his own understanding exposed him to the other disciples, he was not in fact exposed to them; they did not know who the Lord was referring to. In that instant Judas was simply exposed to himself. His words, in which he calls Jesus "Master ought to be the most sobering words in all of history to anyone who makes use of spiritual authority as a cover for personal gain. In the world these things are as nothing compared to what these things mean in the church. It is naive in the extreme not to understand the profound nature of deception which is afoot in the world, but it is sheer madness not to understand that apostasy and the preceding deceptions which inform it, are directed at and can be found in the Church itself. Arguments about whether demons can possess the bodies of animals, and by imputation, the bodies of men; and by further imputation the bodies of saints or not, are futile and serve no purpose. That demons can possess both animals and men is self-evident from the account of the demoniac and the herd of pigs. Whether demons can ordinarily possess saints is a matter of ministry and being led of the Holy Spirit and not a matter of simplistic doctrine. This is why the subject is so confusing. We ought not to worry about such possession, but we ought to be mindful and wise about the way in which the enemy of our souls labors.
Deception and the possibility of being led away from the Lord are real. Even though they cannot in fullness mean being led away for ever, all such being led away, will cost that individual dearly as well their families and indeed anyone who believes in them and submits to them; both in the familiar way or in an open display of submission.
In answer to your simple question Steve concerning what demons do if you give them ground. They start to lead you away from the Lord. Above all else this is what they will do.
Understanding where our confidence lies is the key to remaining in the Lord. Sin will give ground, but deception is the object and desire and it is to lead you away from the Lord. Our confidence is in the Lord Himself. It is Jesus who overcame the world and the devil. It is Jesus Who triumphed over the wicked one and it is Jesus who took away the power of sin and death. It is Jesus who made a public display of all wickedness and wicked powers in His own body, crucified for our sins. Therefore it must be to Jesus that we look for sustenance and repentance and cleansing and power to walk, not to ourselves. To this attitude Satan has absolutely no remedy at all.
| 2012/9/30 11:29|
| Re: |
Arguments about whether demons can possess the bodies of animals, and by imputation, the bodies of men; and by further imputation the bodies of saints or not, are futile and serve no purpose
Thanks for the reply.
Even though you agree with my point on possession,I disagree
with your quote above.It isnt futile and does serve a purpose.
Why it isnt futile?
Because it is a scripture that shows that a demon or demons were possessing an animal who have no spirit.This nullify's the arguement that a christian can not have a demon because "the Holy Spirit doesnt inhabit a mans Spirit with a demon"
What is the Purpose?
The purpose of the post is to show that the Church has thrown the baby out with the bathwater.That Satan in recent years has hoodwinked the church into believing "he doesnt exist"!The purpose of the post is to show that we now have persecuted Christians in the church who need help and are not receiving it.
Whether demons can ordinarily possess saints is a matter of ministry and being led of the Holy Spirit and not a matter of simplistic doctrine.
Almost all doctrine in the bible is a serious of simple teaching although I agree with Peter that Paul's writing is hard to understand at times.The passage about the Pigs is simplistic but is also correct.Thats the beauty of the Bible is its simplicity and practicality.
Thanks for your insight yours Staff
| 2012/9/30 12:14||Profile|
| Re: Armkelly|
I respect what u believe about this, but no matter what we think, or feel about it, God's Word is what I trust. This subjects brings no edification for my soul/spirit and is a disputable matter. I'm pulling out on this thread, I'd rather discuss the wonderful works of God.
| 2012/9/30 12:22||Profile|
| Re: |
i am glad to say that i only used the word of god and not experiencial doctrine in this matter.it is not a disputable matter to satan who knows that many christans are under persecution from demons.once the word of god is explained correctly whether u or i like it or not it it brings edification.when god releases a person from bondage of a demon this is a wonderful work of god and worth discussion !!yours and god bless staff
| 2012/9/30 13:23||Profile|
| Re: |
Staff if you are going to use Mat. 8:28-.32 to reason demons can inhabit a believers mind and body. Then you are going to have to follow through on your logic. First the demons had to have the permission if Jesus to enter the pigs. Ate you suggesting that Christ gives permission for demons to enter a believer that has been redeemed by his death at the cross.
The scond thing I see in this pasage from Marks account was that the man who was in his right mind is now a believer. Thus suggesting he wasnot a believer when he was inhabited by demons.
In both Mathew 8 and Mark 5 I see the exact opposite if what you are suggesting. 1.Demons inhabit nonbelievers, not believers. 2. Demons need permission by Christ to inhabit anything. He certainly is nit going to give them permission to inhabit a believer.
| 2012/9/30 14:44|
| Re: PIGS HAVE NO SPIRIT!|
No matter what we think, or feel about it, God's Word is what I trust. This subject brings no edification for my soul/spirit and is a disputable matter. I'm pulling out on this thread; I'd rather discuss the wonderful works of God. Steve.
No doubt Steve you have the better portion.
I disagree with your quote above. It isnt futile and does serve a purpose.
Why it isnt futile?
Because it is a scripture that shows that a demon or demons possessed an animal that have no spirit. This nullitys the argument that a Christian cannot have a demon because "the Holy Spirit doesnt inhabit a mans Spirit with a demon"
What is the Purpose?
The purpose of the post is to show that the Church has thrown the baby out with the bathwater. That Satan in recent years has hoodwinked the church into believing "he doesnt exist! The purpose of the post is to show that we now have persecuted Christians in the church who need help and are not receiving it. Staff.
There are only two ways to come into familiar or occult knowledge. The first is to act wickedly and determine to acquire it. This will cost you your life and in the end without Christ your eternal soul. The second is to preach the gospel of Christ effectually in a public place. I have been grounded in both of these ways.
The former was from the age of 7 when I first consciously looked into these things, having been driven there by the wicked one through parental abuse in the first instance and then as I yielded myself by virtue of demonic possession. Deliverance came by way of coming to Christ whilst in prison in 1984 aged 24 years. The 14 years in between these two dates was spent exercising familiar knowledge without any realisation that I was in fact exercising the power of my own soul to a wicked end, as well as developing a certain intention to serve the wicked one; just as the wicked one blasphemously desired for my life. In coming to the knowledge of God and Christ I was able to throw the whole bag of rubbish concerning my former interest straight into the bin in the corner of my cell. Just prior to being saved I couldnt have told you what a demon was let alone understand that I was profoundly possessed and was being driven as a result. I knew I was driven, and had done for several years before my conversion. But I could not have understood how it was that I was driven or by what. I knew that I was able to control people with ease, but I did not realise that my controlling influence was in the first instance my own soul power. These are intellect (rational mind), emotions, (seat of emotions in the mind) and will (volition or the seat of choosing, in the mind). As a child I childishly exercised this soul power over animals, people and even objects in a childish way. It was fun. I even exercised a degree of influence over those who were harming me. But fear of them laid waste to childish thoughts and gave way to witchcraft and a desire to murder them.
The greatest deception which the wicked one pulls off in generality is getting those who have developed an interest in the super natural by whatever means, to believe that it is either innocent and neutral or else that it is something given by spirits. In rarer instances it an imputation that these abilities are in fact given by Satan. Though it is not the Satan of Scriptures it is a Satan of Satans own making. It is a presentation of Lucifer, that former cherub who set himself to be like God and was destroyed. It is a before he was destroyed understanding. This kind of knowledge is available and clearly seen and understood in Scriptures. Yet to the mind of the unbeliever it seems like a coming into something of great worth and value. It leads the one so deceived into believing they have become a better person. They do not even realise it is the knowledge of Satan because the wicked one hides behind an image of his former beauty and does not even reveal so much as a morsel of who he really is. Then there are a few (very few) who are become so wicked themselves that they have pressed themselves into a state of mind that they become demonic in nature with full intentional wickedness. Of this latter number I would not even so much as speak. They are hidden and they need to remain hidden. God understands them and this is sufficient. In the Scriptures only three men are named in this way. Judas Iscariot, The Beast of Revelations and the false prophet of Revelations. Even when we speak of many anti-Christs we are speaking of men who are in reality hidden. They must remain hidden yet in the apostolic church they became known, not because they were discerned, but because they went out; in the face of the Apostles teachings they could not remain. So by going out they became known. Again when we speak of the spirit of anti-Christ we are speaking of the working of Satan in men. The measure of it is that these men deny that Christ has come in the flesh. In finality that man who gives himself over to wickedness by claiming to be Christ, thereby denies that Christ has come in the flesh. His declaration is primarily to Israel according to the flesh, yet he is believed by many, including the apostate church.
Yes it is true that to speak of demonic activity is in no way edifying. It is in fact a great sadness to speak about creatures which are destroyed and whose end is destruction. Yet because of the times in which we live it is necessary. In fact it is more necessary now than at any time in church history. As those who have believed we take comfort from the knowledge of Christ Who has brought us into His kingdom by means of a life relationship through forgiveness of sins. If we stumble we can once again seek His face and we will be forgiven those things as well. It is not that our first repenting and calling on His name was lacking in some way, it is rather that we have an enemy who is labouring in the full knowledge of God and revelation of Scriptures to deceive if possible even the elect of God. Sin makes ground for him to oppress us if by some means he can discourage us from serving Christ effectually. Given that Satan is already defeated and is rendered powerless with regard to sin and death, one would have to ask why he is able to continue in a hidden deception, yet in something which is clearly revealed to us through Scriptures. The answer lies in his mind which is in truth a mind of true madness. Whilst the demons which were caste out of the poor man in the garden cried out in fear when they saw The Son of Man, Satan blasphemously moved to tempt The Son of Man, and even sought to have Him fall down and worship him. This very same creature when he first awoke to become a covering cherub looked our Lord right in the eyes and knew Him from the first. He was thus created to dwell upon the mountain of God in the stones of fire and worship.
The second way to come into knowledge of demonic activity is preach the gospel of Christ in a public place. There you will see just what it means to speak about demonic activity. I have been threatened with death, cursed, rebuked and other things. In all of these instances I have not seen a man, but an unclean spirit seeking to prevent me by fear of man, from preaching the gospel effectually. I have rebuked the spirit of Mormonism as it has passed by me, as well the spirit of Islam and the working of Satan himself. In all of this I did not see men. I saw and understood that these men were all deceived and incapable of doing other than they were doing.
In speaking like this I realise that I am in danger of drawing attention to myself. Yet this is the precise thing which is needful to understand demonic activity. It is not a set of simple or otherwise doctrines. It is and can only be truly understood in the light of Christ working in the lives of men in our own experience of men. I have listened to Hindus begging to be delivered from demonic activity in their lives. They were so terrified that they had written the name of the demon on their arms in a tattoo in the hope of appeasing the spirit which was tormenting them. Yet I have seen the same as these incapable of receiving Christ, because though they understood that they were being tormented by demons; through fear, they were still yielding to the demon and its influence by seeking to appease it. Such as these cannot be delivered because their condition once the demon returned would be more terrible than before. To say to them I cannot deliver you, even though they had sought you or a friend out for this very purpose was heart breaking. If they had been able to see Christ as their deliverer then they would indeed have been delivered.
Such are we who have seen Christ by faith and are delivered. Let us not once again be drawn into disobedience and through sin, be led astray into a life of self-interest and satisfaction. Neither let knowledge itself satisfy us, but good works and the fruit of the Spirit through which our conscience will approve us before God so that in drawing near to The Father and The Son, we might also comprehend His drawing near to us, that we might know Him, even as we are known by Him. There is more Joy and satisfaction from once instance of truly knowing The Father than all the knowledge in the universe. It was for this purpose that Christ died for us. That we might know The Father. I dont despise knowledge especially the simplicity of Scriptures, but I do comprehend that knowledge without obedience is vanity. Knowledge will not save us if it is not met with obedience through faith. I agree that many saints are suffering because of demons. But the remedy is not invocations it is obedience. The demons will soon move on if they realise that very soon you will be presenting yourself before The Father in heaven in a good conscience.
| 2012/9/30 15:03|
Richmond, Va. USA
| Re: |
Was not Peter a believer when Jesus turned to him and looked him in the eye and said, "Get behind me satan, for thou art mindful of the things of man, and not of God."?
Humans are merely empty vessels, whatever spirit we yield to is the spirit we serve, whether the spirit of sin, which was known in the early church, unto death, or the Spirit of God unto life eternal.
If a Christian walks into a fire does he not get burned the same as if an unbeliever walked into it? Therefore, if a Christian yields to an evil spirit, whether knowingly(willful sin) or unknowingly, is he nevertheless immune to being burnt by that wicked fire?
The only safety is in the experiential knowledge of the finished work of Christ on Calvary and the believer standing on that ground. Nothing wicked can come onto resurrection ground, only that in the believer which is not on the resurrection side of the Cross is satans legal right to the believer. Yet God is faithful, when we ask for light as to the deception of the enemy He gives it, and the experiential knowledge of being crucified with Christ applied will give us Christ's victory and glorify God.
R. Evan Gombach
| 2012/9/30 15:29||Profile|
| Re: |
Is there testimonies of a demon being cast out of belever?
| 2012/9/30 15:54||Profile|
| Re: Levi|
Peter wad thinking with the mind of man.. Basically fleshky carnal thinking. Such thoughts can be put there by Satan. This does not imply Peter was latched on by a demon in his mind. Jesus was addressing the source of Peters thinking. That being Satan. He was not addressing a demon in Peters mind.
I think this thread is suggesting demons can inhabit a believer's mind and body. Presumably after conversion. I do not see that taught in the New Testament. In an earlier post I quoted different verses that declare Satan is defeated, believers are protected from the devil, and believers have victory over the devil.
| 2012/9/30 17:19|