| Re: PIGS HAVE NO SPIRIT!|
1 John 5:18 says that the one born of God keeps him safe and the evil one cannot harm him. Other translations say the evil one cannot touch him. Thus any child of God cannot be latched on or inhabited by demons.
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. Little children, guard yourselves from idols. 1 John5:18-21
This passage sets out the basis for understanding precisely what constitutes the foundation of a believer being kept both from the evil one.
No one who is born of God sins speaks of a reality which is God Himself as well as a new life in Christ. The basis for being kept is a sinless life in the spirit. The ground for possessing this sinless life is knowing that The Son of God has come. The effect is an understanding arising from knowing Him who is true; being in Him who is true; even Jesus Christ the Son of God. The outcome is the understanding of true God and possessing eternal life. All of this speaks of the spirit, because that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Alas if we were but spirit we would be able to dismiss every other thought and place our childlike reliance on the saying no one who is born of God sins. Unfortunately we are not simply a spirit; we are spirit soul and body. So John concludes his letter with what seems like a random warning little children guard your selves from idols. It must be clear to anyone who is truly born again of the Spirit of God that an idol is nothing. Neither would such a one be inclined to worship an idol as though it were in fact something. Paul gives a good example of what this may mean and includes the soul and the body as well as the spirit in its envelope.
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idols temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 1 Corinthians 8:4-12
What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? We are not stronger than He, are we? 1 Corinthians 10:19-22
These two passages deal with one principle issue, not an idol, for an idol is nothing, nor the belly (body) for what goes into the belly goes into the drain, nor even the mind, because for us there is no such thing as an idol, for we worship true God and One Lord even Christ Jesus. The passage has to do with a brother or sister who has a weakened conscience. The conscience is a function of the spirit. The issue is not even a brother or sister seeing us eating in an idols temple; meat sacrificed to an idol, which is the same as meat sacrificed to a demon. It is when that liberty of ours serves to encourage our brother or sister to do likewise and which then ruins them because their conscience being already weakened before God, is then hardened even further by fellowshipping with demons through the eating of meat sacrificed to demons. In the spirit as a new creature a demon is nothing, neither a temple, neither an idol. As it is written For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. Whatever makes for a weakened conscience in the first place is singularly important. It is sin. As we are here speaking of our brethren and not simply one man we must speak so as to minister to all men and not one man. If you have the knowledge that an idol is nothing etc., and you have no sin; if your conscience is clear before God and is not weakened by sin then you will no doubt know how to walk without so much as a second thought for idols, temples and demons. Yet even in that liberty you may not be free to do as you please because of your brother or sister who is observing you and may follow your lead. If you are not free from sin then you would be better able to stand and walk; if you knew how the enemy of our souls works and has always worked. You will be able to understand why the greatest sin for the saint; that of making an idol of things and thereby denying God, can be withstood and in that do away with demonic activity as well in your personal life.
I realise that all of this does not address the issue in a single verse whether a demon can or cannot latch onto or else oppress believers. But if you were to ask yourself in what circumstances is it possible for us to be kept completely from harm in this way, we would have to say it is only when we are walking in newness of life. If we walk in the flesh we will sin and when we do we will give ground for the enemy of our souls. Our way of escape will always be the same way of repentance. If we confess our sins He is just and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Seeking to prove the activity of demons is probably foolish of itself. But so is denying the reality of the air we live in which is filled with unclean spirits; whos lord is always looking for an opportunity to devour someone. As the whole world is in him, I rather think that he doesnt need to look to unbelievers. He is looking to devour those who believe.
| 2012/9/28 5:12|
| Re: |
This is a very contentious issue among Christians and I don't want to make an absolute statement about it. Many do have very fixed positions, but a lot of this is based on 'experience', anecdotes or passed on theories and traditions. All of which are not a solid foundation for sound doctrine. We must stick to scripture and not as someone has already said, 'read between the lines' and put our own ideas in there.
I have for most of my Christain life (30 plus years) had a lot of exposure to various well known and also local church based'deliverance ministries'. I have come to the conclusion that a lot of what is taught and practiced is based on personal experience and teaching that is passed around this circle, but not clear scriptural truth. So every one repeats the same things and where it came from is forgotten, but it is accepted as truth. An example of this is what Andrew Kelly mentioned. He talked about disembodied spirits (Steve questioned this). The answer to Steve's question is that many believe(forgive me if I am mis-representing you Andrew) they are the spirits of the Nephilim mentioned in Genesis 6 and also in 2 Peter 2:4. This teaching was popularised by Derek Prince, but is is pure speculation and we cannot say one way or another. The other problem is that a lot of this 'casting out of spirits' is performed in churches or conferences that undoubtedly have un-saved person who think they are saved. Hence there may be occasions when a true deliverance takes place, but the person may have never been a child of God anyway.
Now Jesus went around casting out spirits all the time and passed the command onto His disciples (including us), but as has been pointed out, you don't see one account of this being practised in the church among true believers. Problem is I don't ever see those so called deliverance ministries casting out demons from unbelievers, although there probably are un-known true servants of God on the mission field doing such. They just don't have a 'deliverance ministry', they are too busy preaching the gospel!
Andrew you stated: "The subject is a difficult one and there are no simple Scriptural references to explain the origin and substance of demons, or else to explain the difference between that which is earth bound, natural and demonic; and that which is said to be principalities and powers of wickedness in heavenly places. This does not mean that this cannot be explained it simply means that it is probably unnecessary to explain it. The Lord Bless you brother."
This my point exactly, so how can anyone make a fixed statement on this subject, let alone start to impose this ministry on others. I'm not suggesting you are brother, but there are many out there who are.
One other point Andrew made that needs clarification is when he said: "No one who is born of God sins speaks of a reality which is God Himself as well as a new life in Christ. The basis for being kept is a sinless life in the spirit......."
The passage in 1 John 3:9 literally says according to the greek grammer 'Whoever is born of God does not 'continue' to sin'. It is not talking about sinless pefection or about our renewed spirit. It is talking about a life walk. If we are born of God, we do not continue in a sinful life as a normal practice. We chose to walk in righteousness (1 John 2:29), that does not mean we are sinless and cannot fall, but there is a way of restoration as described in 1 John 1:9. Also if we walk in the light (not sinless perfection), the blood of Christ clenses us from all sin.
| 2012/9/28 6:13||Profile|
| Re: PIGS HAVE NO SPIRIT!|
Have we been attacked by Spam?Ironically similar to a christian having a demon!
But seriously-Answer these questions from Scripture
1-Can a demon inhabit a pig or animal-Yes or No?
2-Does a Pig or Animal have a Spirit?Yes or No
3-Where does it say in Scripture that a demon possesses a man's Spirit?(unsaved)
My post as you can see is totally based on scripture as anyone can see..
and I am saying clearly that from scripture that a demon can enter into a mans body or mind and not his spirit.
I am also saying that because a mans spirit is not involved that a demon can enter a Christians body or mind if the way is left open.
I believe that this teaching is from the Holy Spirit and I believe that it is a way of looking at the issue practically in a new way that explains what a demon can and cant do,
I am not looking for the old rhetoric from either side but just want you to look afresh at this Scripture about the demon possessed men and the pigs and see what it tells us,
| 2012/9/28 8:47||Profile|
| Re: PIGS HAVE NO SPIRIT!|
The passage in 1 John 3:9 literally says according to the greek grammer 'Whoever is born of God does not 'continue' to sin'. It is not talking about sinless pefection or about our renewed spirit. It is talking about a life walk. If we are born of God, we do not continue in a sinful life as a normal practice. We chose to walk in righteousness (1 John 2:29), that does not mean we are sinless and cannot fall, but there is a way of restoration as described in 1 John 1:9. Also if we walk in the light (not sinless perfection), the blood of Christ clenses us from all sin. heydave
See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brothers were righteous. Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has the worlds goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. I John 3:1-24
Thanks for the encouragement Dave. Unfortunately when I quoted 1 John 5:18-21 and made reference to the saying no one who is born of God sins as a reality arising from the regenerate spirit, this is precisely what I did mean to say. The passage above also from the Apostle John includes the saying No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin. I think this verse cuts out any possibility of grammatical exegesis being necessary to understanding Scriptures. The subject of this verse is being born again, the object is being born of Gods seed, and the result is that he cannot sin. The reason is the seed Who is Christ Himself as promised in Genesis to Adam and Eve as a remedy for the problem of sin. The reality is that it is the spirit (of man) that is born of the Spirit (of God) producing a new creature which possessing the very same life (seed) which is Christ Himself, and cannot sin, even as Christ Himself cannot sin. This does speak of a sinless life and as it is a being born of God it must therefore be of the spirit in substance which is being spoken off. It cannot be the soul, our minds are no born of God, they are renewed and our bodies are not born of God, they are translated in the twinkling of an eye, a new body.
I am not being argumentative here but I do want to be understood in the terms of my intentional use of words to describe what I describe not something else. It is precisely because the spirit is born again that it is possible for John to make the distinction in one verse that we should not continue in sin, because we cannot sin. The cannot sin has to do with Christ Himself whose life we now possess. We are not independent spirits we are united into Christ death, raised up with Him, ascended into heaven in His train and seated down at the right hand of the Father in Him. The soul on the other hand is capable of sin because its power came from our natural father according to Adam. Christ was crucified 33 AD I was born 1959 AD. The interim period is filled with countless millions who gave their lives to Christ. I did not give my life to Christ until 1984. Only then was it possible for me to receive the seed; the promise of God, a new life in Christ, Christ in me, etc.. When I first believed I didnt drop down dead, rather I was made alive in Christ and He in me by the Holy Spirit, even Christ. My soul continued on after I was born of the Spirit of God. My body was not transformed into a new body. It remained the body of sin. John is speaking about a profound reality which many believers do not lay hold off. Not a mans efforts to sinless perfection, but the sinless man Himself, even Christ in you the hope of glory.
As for this business of demonic activity and its effect on believers who continue in sin in the power of their souls, wilful, full of emotion and with the mind of disobedience, it is a problem and it is a ground for the enemy. The body of sin (physical body) though it is dead because of sin and unrighteousness can be brought into submission, by faith to the spiritual life we now possess; alive in Christ, always tending to goodness and truth. I know nothing of others ministries in this area, I only know what I have discerned and understood as I have walked and experienced this life which I now live in the flesh, by faith in the Son of God Who loved me and gave His life for me. As I have said it isnt necessary to prove something which is clearly not Gods intention for our lives. Neither can we disregard spiritual warfare simply because we personally have no experience of it. As a matter of sobering reality the most demonic inclinations which are in the world are not dispossessed spirits but men who become demonic when they press against the truth in a denial of it, even to the denial of Christ Himself. Such a man was Judas Iscariot. Of Him the Lord said have I not chosen all of you? Yet one of you is a devil. Many here speak of the coming persecution both on America and then tribulation on the church variously throughout the whole world. Those doing the persecuting will be acting demonically and many will be driven in their minds having handed themselves over to unclean spirits to press the matter into complete rebellion and disobedience. These and others, believing spiritual powers of wickedness in heavenly places will become the chief character of men in these last days. Only after Judas had completed his own rebellion and disobedience did Satan enter into him to empower him to that which ought not to have been possible; an open and knowledgeable betrayal of Christ unto death; having first been chosen as an apostle of Christ! I dont say we or anyone today could be as was Judas. But we are of the same substance as he was. What he did before Satan possessed him he did of himself. He was born a son of his natural father and became a demon by reason of conduct. The demons which are in the air were once similarly created alive and are become dead, which is to say their bodies have been destroyed. Just as Judas destroyed his own body through hanging himself on a tree and then spilling his guts onto the rocks below as he fell from the branch which broke under him. It is written that he went unto his own place. In the end a separation will take place and this problem will be dealt with anyway. In the mean time may believers suffer demonic attacks and it is largely ignored. I suppose that because the answer to this problem now is a simple matter of walking in obedience these attacks would largely be dealt with in that way of obedience.
| 2012/9/28 12:14|
| Re: To: Heydave|
Thanks bro, I figured this doctrine was part of something like that. I just wasn't sure. I try not to spend my time warning Christians that they could be possessed or influenced by demons. I'd rather talk about what God does. Since I joined this site I have had such a temptation to respond to everything, when there is no need to. Thanks for your response.
| 2012/9/28 13:19||Profile|
| Re: |
Wow bro... Because Jesus sent demons into pigs who only have a mind and body, that teaches demons can enter
Christian's mind and body? That's a big jump
Granted it appears a big Jump except that if you take away a mans Spirit what have you left,Body and Mind the same as an animal except smarter.This scripture bypasses the argument that a christian cannot have a demon in their spirit because the Holy Spirit is there.
Also it is purely a scriptural argument not based on experience at all.
U made an interesting statement about the Christian giving or opening himself up to demons because of sin in his life: I'll tell you, I'm a sinning sinner! I cant deny that, the Bible says it, my conscience confirms it, and experience proves it. Now if you were to tell me the only way I can be safe from the constant threat of demon attacks is to be sinless, that's a tall order, i hope you will be able to attain that, so you're not always wondering if what your saying, doing, or feeling is a demon you allowed to influence you.
This statement you made very important but as you know no one can be sinless.
I think and this part is experience rather than scripture based but I think if a christian has a demon it is the left over from our previous life before we were saved.It is the area in our life that (maybe habitual sin)that we never had victory in that gives the demon jurisdiction.
Now whether to cast out a demon from where it has jurisdiction without first dealing with why it has the right to be there is another story.
Interestingly the demons in the story firstly made a legal argument to Christ "Have you come to judge us before the time".
| 2012/9/29 6:48||Profile|
| Re: PIGS HAVE NO SPIRIT!|
U made an interesting statement about the Christian giving or opening himself up to demons because of sin in his life: I'll tell you, I'm a sinning sinner! I cant deny that, the Bible says it, my conscience confirms it, and experience proves it. Now if you were to tell me the only way I can be safe from the constant threat of demon attacks is to be sinless, that's a tall order, i hope you will be able to attain that, so you're not always wondering if what your saying, doing, or feeling is a demon you allowed to influence you. Staff
Sinless perfection is a tall order. In fact it is impossible. The Scripture tells us that we all sin every day. As Dave said earlier the Scripture also tells us that it is walking in the light of Christ which provides a benefit; chiefly that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. The other Scripture which deals with this problem of sin requires our confessing sins before we are able to benefit. The first benefit doesnt require confession it simply requires a walking in the Light of Christ. The second clearly is when we do not walk in the light of Christ and find ourselves sinning in some manner or other, and this type does require confession. This one type of benefit, confessing our sins, is based on Gods justice and righteousness to cleanse us from all sin because of the shed blood of Christ. The other type of benefit is based on the blood as well, but it is a continuous benefit as long as we walk in the light.
There are many kinds of sins but different effects and consequences. Gross sins and sins which lead unto death cannot be simply overlooked because we have not sinned in that way for some time! If we forget because we have justified our sinning and then dont sin for a few months in a particular type of sin, this may lead us to believe that God will somehow overlook what we have done. In that frame of mind and heart we may well experience a real difficulty in finding Gods presence in our lives and therein lays a problem. The only way to deal with this hard heart is to go back and confess those things which we ought to know cannot be simply overlooked. Stealing, wilful lying, hatred, gross jealousy, adultery and blaspheming God, but to name a few are obvious examples of sins which cannot be simply overlooked even if we may have changed our minds about what we have done. If we do these things and continue in them we will certainly give ground to the enemy and thereby to demons. Remove the ground (our sins) and the enemy is dealt with for the most part. After that any attacks from the enemy should come from the air or else from unbelievers working in the mind of Satan to hate us and persecute us. The wonderful thing about this is that these kinds of attacks are a blessing and actually produce real joy. Suffering for what we have done willfully is a real drudgery and it is unpleasant. Therein should lie a profound clue as to why demons have the legal ground to attack us and if they can, to oppress us and lay hold of our lives. God Himself permits it for our own sakes, but more importantly for His Names Sake.
| 2012/9/29 8:58|
| Re: Truth from the Word|
Col.2:15......And having disarmed the powers and authorites, he made a public spectable of them, by triumphing over them by the cross.
Heb.2:14-15.......Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death----that us, the devil----and free those who all tbeir lives were held in slavery by tbeir fear if death.
1 John 3:8.......The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devils work.
Brothers in light of the above verses. How can you suggest a demon can inhabit a blood baught child of God. Either the work of f Christ defeated and destroyed Satan or it did not. My New Testament says that the devil is defeated. That is the truth of God's word
The devil, being the lier that he is. Would have saints believe otherwise. That is to believe that a Christian who is born again and kept safe by the power of God, can be infested with demons. Not so. This is a lie from the pit. And these type of discussions can give more power to that lie.
Again the truth of God's Word is this;
John 8:31-32....... If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
John 8:36.......But if the Son sets you free. You will be free indeed.
Conclusion. Believers free of Satan.
2 Thes.3:3.......But the Lord is faithful. He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
1 John 5:18.......The One born of God keeps him safe and the evil one cannot touch him.
Conclusion. Believers protected from Satan.
Romans 16:20.......And the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
1 John 2:14.......I write to you young men because you are strong, and the word of God livers in you and you have overcome the evil one.
1 Cor.15:57.......But thanks be to God. He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Conclusion. Believers are victorious over Satan because of Christ. Hallelujah! For this is the testimony and the truth if God's word.
| 2012/9/29 10:39|
| Re: |
Im sorry but it still confuses me. What exactly do these demons do, after I "give them ground"?
"Reckon yourselves indeed dead to sin but alive to God in Christ"
There is a real work that has been done by God and I am encouraged to keep that in mind, that it would be of faith. Flesh cannot control flesh, that is the need for a new nature.
"Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God, but you are not controlled by the flesh but by the Spirit..."
Born naturally, everything I do derives from a nature that is enslaved to sin. The dominating principle is sin. Sure I might do thing that have an appearance of being good, but because it derives from a sinful nature, it is sinful and unacceptable to God.
Being born again that old nature is put do death, and the new nature is in power controlled by the Spirit. I still have the ability to sin, but my choosing to sin now is a free will choice and not a natural result of the power of sin, because that has been rendered powerless by the Spirit.
The good things I do now, I don't do to be right with God, but because I am right with God I choose to do good things.
| 2012/9/29 12:08||Profile|
| Re: |
Hi again and thanks for the replys,
But isnt it just the same old rhetoric?.Instead of dealing with scripture concerned we just reel off scripture and scripture that dont answer the post.
1.Can an animal who doesnt have a spirit be possessed by a demon?
2.Can a demon possess a body and mind?
| 2012/9/29 17:54||Profile|