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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : pastors preach politics and challenge irs

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 Re:

Chris the examples you sited were people opposing governmental authority for the gospel. Not making political statements.

Bearmaster.

 2012/9/21 15:51









 Re:

We can never know what a man thinks, unless he tells us. The Scriptures say that " out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Would it not be marvelous that when all our words are numbered and counted in that day that the vast majority of our words were lovely and beautiful and encouraging and used to prasie the living God and to share His word and His love and His mercy. How dreadful if the majority of our words were all used up in political speeches, whether in defence of or attacking political entitites or opinions. Let the world do what it does and fight its own fights, but as for us, let us be found to be speaking life into this world while there is yet time.........bro Frank

 2012/9/21 16:41
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4488


 Re:

Quote:

Chris the examples you sited were people opposing governmental authority for the gospel. Not making political statements.

Bearmaster.



Actually, you brought up those names as examples of the "persecuted." Yet, as persecuted as they were, they also violated the laws of their respective days and governments.

As for "political statements:" I have tried to make it clear that EVERYTHING can be contrived as a "political statement" to people that hate Christ, His Church or those who disagree with a lifestyle that is contrary to God's Word.

In many countries, even SermonIndex is considered a "political issue." I suspect that some nations and "government leaders" have forbidden the content contained on this website. In most Islamic nations, the fact that someone is a Christian or Jew is considered a "political" issue because there is no separation between Islam and state. Many Christians and Jews must pay taxes just to live ("jizya").

To many on the ideological Left, the fact that a church exists is a "political statement." The fact that they don't pay taxes or have certain Constitutional protections is proof that the Church is a "political" entity -- because it consists of many temporary citizens of this land. To them, ANY message that doesn't condone homosexuality or that believes in the life of the unborn is a "political statement."

The point that these pastors seem to be attempting to make is that, according to the U.S. Constitution, it is not the job of the IRS to regulate the Church.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/9/21 18:55Profile









 Re:

Chris the church cannot have it both ways. If she is going to accept Caesar's 501c3 then she accepts the regulations that come with it. These pastors never should have accepted the 501c3 if they did not want government regulations. Anything the government gives comes with conditions. That is Federal regulation.

If the church wants to be free from government regulation. Then she should not accept 501c3. Or any other faith based funds. In all honesty the church should simply be separate from the government. Where did we ever get this idea the church needs a 501c3. I simply don't see it in my New Testament.

The less the church has to do with the government the better. Start receiving favor from the government. It comes with a price. And is she willing to pay that price.

We as believers are called to be separate from the world system. The first century Christians understood this. You never saw the first century Christians appealing to the Roman government for favor. This is why the believers were effective in their witness of Christ..Only when Constantine legalized Christianity did the church Lose jts effectiveness. Same can be said for the church in America.

Again the American church cannot have it both ways.

Bearmaster.

 2012/9/21 20:36
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4488


 Re:

Bearmaster,

No one is saying that they "want it both ways."

This is a nation where the laws are CHANGED on a daily basis. The only "law" that isn't changed on a daily basis are those found in the U.S. Constitution...and even those can be changed.

As for "government regulation" of the Church: Churches were tax exempt long before 501c3.

Now, no one is saying that the Church should exist for political purposes. In fact, I agree that the Church should not meander into the world of pushing one candidate over another.

The Liberals who are targeting churches aren't concerned so much with the Reverend Jeremiah Wrights of this country who freely rant about Conservatives (or even Hillary Clinton). Rather, those politicians are wanting to restrain "speech" that doesn't accept their views on morality, religion, personal responsibility or economics.

Again, you are generalizing the idea of "politics" and "government." The fact that "religion" (as in "faith") appears in the Constitution and in law makes it a "political" issue to many. The same is true of things like "sexual orientation," "abortion" and "hate speech" laws.

You mentioned having it "both ways" in terms of obedience to secular laws. Yet, the same individuals that you cited as suffering under persecution also violated the laws of their respective times and nations. Did they have it "both ways?" Or, were they simply operating in the liberty that they have in Christ and SHOULD have in this world?

BTW, the Church did not lose its "effectiveness" because of any laws passed by Constantine. That, too, is a generalization. It has been many, many centuries since Constantine -- and the true Church is still here and is as effective as those who cling to Christ.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/9/21 21:07Profile









 "rainy day girl"

My dear sister,

i do not know your name, but God does.

i will not contend with the words and ways of men, but God will.
i will only write what the LORD lays upon my heart, and what the prophets who have gone before, and have seen the Glory of the LORD.

Therefore consider carefully the Words of the prophet Jeremiah, who spoke of such things,as we saw yesterday, and see ahead in the Spirit of the LORD....consider carefully, beloved sister:

"Concerning the prophets:

My heart is broken within me;
all my bones shake;
I am like a drunken man,
like a man overcome by wine,
because of the Lord
and because of his holy words.
For the land is full of adulterers;
because of the curse the land mourns,
and the pastures of the wilderness are dried up.
Their course is evil,
and their might is not right.
“Both prophet and priest are ungodly;
even in my house I have found their evil,
declares the Lord.
Therefore their way shall be to them
like slippery paths in the darkness,
into which they shall be driven and fall,
for I will bring disaster upon them
in the year of their punishment,
declares the Lord.
In the prophets of Samaria
I saw an unsavory thing:
they prophesied by Baal
and led my people Israel astray.
But in the prophets of Jerusalem
I have seen a horrible thing:
they commit adultery and walk in lies;
they strengthen the hands of evildoers,
so that no one turns from his evil;
all of them have become like Sodom to me,
and its inhabitants like Gomorrah.”

AND THEN Jeremiah continues in grief of soul, warning us, even us: (i would never post so MUCH Scripture, but as God is the same yesterday, today, forever.....so are the schemes that the sons of darkness endeavour, as they done in the past, and that is to TRY and WED the Pure Undefiled Bride of Christ, (Which is the Church) to the dark, craven, idol worshipping sons of babylon, and their mother, the whore of babylon....Jeremiah continues:

"Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets:
“Behold, I will feed them with bitter food
and give them poisoned water to drink,
for from the prophets of Jerusalem
ungodliness has gone out into all the land.”

Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes. They speak visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. They say continually to those who despise the word of the Lord, ‘It shall be well with you’; and to everyone who stubbornly follows his own heart, they say, ‘No disaster shall come upon you.’”

For who among them has stood in the council of the Lord
to see and to hear his word,
or who has paid attention to his word and listened?
Behold, the storm of the Lord!
Wrath has gone forth,
a whirling tempest;
it will burst upon the head of the wicked.
The anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he has executed and accomplished
the intents of his heart.
In the latter days you will understand it clearly.

“I did not send the prophets,
yet they ran;
I did not speak to them,
yet they prophesied.
But if they had stood in my council,
then they would have proclaimed my words to my people,
and they would have turned them from their evil way,
and from the evil of their deeds."

Jeremiah 23:9-14...then Jeremiah 23:15-22

why do think that Messiah Jesus walked into the temple, and in Holy Fury, did this?

" In the temple He found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. And making a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And He poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. And He told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make My Father's house a house of trade.” John 2:14-16

the enemy continues to this very day, to decieve and entice the darkened hearts of men, who are OF the world, who lust after their 'god', 'money', 'power', 'influence' which is no god at all, but an idol, a demon, the spirit of babylon.

Don't think for instant, that God is not watching, over the 'hapless and harassed' decieved by this foul wickedness, decieved by smooth words, God's Very Heart grieves and is brought to fury over these idolater's, fore in days past, this brazen rebellion has been seen by Him before, whether in Jerusalem, or in Rome, or England, everwhere the spirit of babylon descends and decieves.

even in this very day, men labor overtime for their 'father', the father of all lies, and will attempt to do as they've done before, to cloak Jesus in the flag of this nation, a nation that has embraced both every individual and national sin, the dark hearts of man could concieve, and in this will come, a terrible whore, it will be called 'the church of america'...from THAT wickedness and darkness, will come the presecution of the Blood Bought saints of Messiah Jesus, who will NOT bow their knees to baal, and some will join the Lord Jesus Christ in Glory, as WITNESS's, to their true faithfulness.

But never think that the Hand of the LORD has grown short, or that He is not watching. The Day of the Lord will come, a Day of Seperation, a Day where many with be salted with Fire and Judgement for their whoring, their greed and their unfaithfulness to the Son of Man, Messiah Jesus.

DON'T BE DECIEVED! flee babylon.

May the Grace and the Peace and the Mercy of God the Father and of the Lord Jesus Christ be upon you, neil





 2012/9/22 7:13









 Re: pastors preach politics and challenge irs

Quote:
Don't think for instant, that God is not watching, over the 'hapless and harassed' decieved by this foul wickedness, decieved by smooth words, God's Very Heart grieves and is brought to fury over these idolater's, fore in days past, this brazen rebellion has been seen by Him before, whether in Jerusalem, or in Rome, or England, everwhere the spirit of babylon descends and decieves.

even in this very day, men labor overtime for their 'father', the father of all lies, and will attempt to do as they've done before, to cloak Jesus in the flag of this nation, a nation that has embraced both every individual and national sin, the dark hearts of man could concieve, and in this will come, a terrible whore, it will be called 'the church of america'...from THAT wickedness and darkness, will come the presecution of the Blood Bought saints of Messiah Jesus, who will NOT bow their knees to baal, and some will join the Lord Jesus Christ in Glory, as WITNESS's, to their true faithfulness. HezWeling.



That's putting it nice and plainly Neil.

Shalom

 2012/9/22 9:55









 Re: "rainy day girl"

Bro Neil writes .......

"But never think that the Hand of the LORD has grown short, or that He is not watching. The Day of the Lord will come, a Day of Seperation, a Day where many with be salted with Fire and Judgement for their whoring, their greed and their unfaithfulness to the Son of Man, Messiah Jesus.
DON'T BE DECIEVED! flee babylon."

Amen brother. I would advise all who read Neil's words to take them to heart. This is wisdom from God and His Word. Now compare that to the wisdom of men. In one you will see life and the other death for there is one kind of wisdom that is sensual and from the mind of man and there is another that flows down from God. The wisdom of man leads us to the wide and broad path, the wisdom of God leads us to His own narrow path. This narrow path is the hard way and runs counter to the flesh. The broad path is easy and fulfilling to the flesh and has brass bands along the way encouraging people and enticing people... bro Frank


Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 2012/9/22 11:31
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4488


 Re:

Sister RainyDay, I agree with any exhortation that we should continue to walk down the straight and narrow path and seek His wisdom when it comes to this or any issue.

We should walk humbly with our God and test the many voices or suggestions that could pollute the purity and simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ or insinuate the motives or spiritual condition of others.

There are many voices in this world. There are even some that are louder than others. Some are proud, alpha voices that often shout their ways and views to the Lord -- in and out of the church -- and then attribute any testing or criticism of such words to the evil one. Such things should not move us. We should not be moved by the words of men but by the Spirit of God through His Word.

We should know His voice -- compassionate, humble, quiet and clear -- well enough that we should know it anywhere. His voice as seen through His Word will provide the wisdom that we need to grow in maturity of such things and, as always, to draw us to Him as we bring Him to others.

When I enter discussions like this, it is not to push my thoughts upon others. I am glad when anyone will test my words by His Word. After all, we aren't the same people we all were just a few years ago; and, with God's grace, we will not be the same a few years from now.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/9/22 14:28Profile









 Re:

In China two churches exist. One is regulated. The other unregulated. The regulated church us called the Three Self Patriotic Movement church or TSPM. It has the Chinese governments approval and sanction. Yet pastors cannot preach Jesus and his resurrection or the second coming of Christ. The other church is the underground/house church. This is the unregistered church that preaches Jesus without government regulation. This is the church that functions in the life of Christ. This is the church that is winning souls to Christ. This is the true remnant bride of Christ. This is the persecuted church
.
In America we have the 501c3 church that closely emulates the TSPM church in China. Just as the TSPM church in China is largky apostate. So will the 501c3 church in America will be apostate. The pastors will be regulated. They will be told what they can and cannot preach. For the sake if 501c3 they will compromise their faith.

What is yet to arise in America is a vibrant house church movement. One such as in China and Iran. God grant that a remnant arise to be part of such a movement.

Will we choose to walk the narrow way of such a movenent.

Bearmaster.

 2012/9/22 17:29





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