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EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
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 Re:

Quote:
Oh I probably am misunderstanding you here again but are you referring to the RCC



Bingo! But remember, I didn't even have to mention any names, and the RCC came to your mind in light of what Paul wrote. ;P

 2012/9/13 0:50Profile
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 Re:

Proudpapa I read a little what you posted about SDA and my historical understanding of them is that they grew out of the Millerite movement that was born during the second great awakening in America.

William Miller was a baptist preacher captivated with the doctrine of the second coming of the Lord. He "predicted on the basis of Daniel 8:14–16 and the "day-year principle" that Jesus Christ would return to Earth between the Spring of 1843 and the Spring of 1844. In the summer of 1844, Millerite Adventists came to believe that Jesus would return on October 22, 1844, understood to be the Biblical Day of Atonement for that year. When this did not happen, most of his followers disbanded and returned to their original churches." - Wikipedia

A minority persisted and came to understand the year 1844 to be not the Advent of Christ but they:

"arrived at the conviction that Daniel 8:14 foretold Christ's entrance into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary rather than his second coming. This new awareness of a sanctuary in heaven became an important part of their thinking. Over the next few decades this understanding developed into the doctrine of the investigative judgment: an eschatological process commencing in 1844 in which Christians will be judged to verify their eligibility for salvation and God's justice will be confirmed before the universe." - Wikipedia

Their understanding of Heavenly Sanctuary is confusing, they say that, "At his ascension, Jesus Christ commenced an atoning ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. In 1844, he began to cleanse the heavenly sanctuary in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement."

Their doctrine of investigative judgment that supposedly started in 1844, has no biblical basis at all and its a theological innovation.

Their teaching of annihilation of the unrighteous or conditional immortality is unscriptural and their abstinance from pork or unclean food, together with their observance of the Sabbath makes them partly "old covenant keepers".

Despite their sabbatical legalistic tendency or dietary laws of OT, on the essentials of faith necessary for salvation Adventists are orthodox christians. To quote from Wikipedia,

"Adventist doctrine resembles trinitarian Protestant theology, with premillennial and Arminian emphases. Adventists uphold teachings such as the infallibility of Scripture, the substitutionary atonement, the resurrection of the dead and justification by faith alone, and are therefore often considered evangelical.[19] In common with certain other Christian churches, they believe in baptism by immersion and creation in six literal days."


Two influencial evalgelicals from the last century had this to say about SDA:

"They are sound on the great New Testament doctrines including grace and redemption through the vicarious offering of Jesus Christ 'once for all." -Donald Barnhouse

"...it is perfectly possible to be a Seventh-day Adventist and be a true follower of Jesus Christ despite heterodox concepts..." - Walter Martin

Walter Martin was an expert on cults and he is considered the father of counter-cult apologetic movement within evangelisalism.



**edited


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 2012/9/13 4:11Profile
EverestoSama
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 Re:

Quote:
Their teaching of annihilation of the unrighteous or conditional immortality is unscriptural and their abstinance from pork or unclean food, together with their observance of the Sabbath makes them partly "old covenant keepers".



Unfortunately, what this makes them are a people severered from Christ.

(NASB) Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Paul wrote that they've departed from the faith.

(NASB) 1 Timothy 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

(NASB) 1 Timothy 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

(NASB) 1 Timothy 4:3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

Quote:
Two influencial evalgelicals from the last century had this to say about SDA:

"They are sound on the great New Testament doctrines including grace and redemption through the vicarious offering of Jesus Christ 'once for all." -Donald Barnhouse

"...it is perfectly possible to be a Seventh-day Adventist and be a true follower of Jesus Christ despite heterodox concepts..." - Walter Martin

Walter Martyn was an expert on cults and he is considered the father of counter-cult apologetic movement within evangelisalism.


No matter what great theologian or expert says they're orthodox, it would be great disservice to any SDA to not tell them that they're following the works and words of a false prophet, and have been severed from Christ.

We're not allowed to make a further distinction or exception on something the Spirit has explicitly said, that I'm aware of.

 2012/9/13 6:11Profile
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 Re:

Brother I think you are being hasty in your judgment concerning this matter. I am not an Adventist and I dont agree with them on certain doctrinal points but on the fundanmentals of faith they are evangelical to the core.

I copied and pasted for you this from Wikipedia about the fundanmentals of their faith:

1. That God is the Sovereign Creator, upholder, and ruler of the universe, and that He is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.
2. That the Godhead, the Trinity, comprises God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
3. That the Scriptures are the inspired revelation of God to men; and that the Bible is the sole rule of faith and practice.
4. That Jesus Christ is very God, and that He has existed with the Father from all eternity.
5. That the Holy Spirit is a personal being, sharing the attributes of deity with the Father and the Son.
6. That Christ, the Word of God, became incarnate through the miraculous conception and the virgin birth; and that He lived an absolutely sinless life here on earth.
7. That the vicarious, atoning death of Jesus Christ, once for all, is all-sufficient for the redemption of a lost race.
8. That Jesus Christ arose literally and bodily from the grave.
9. That He ascended literally and bodily into heaven.
10. That He now serves as our advocate in priestly ministry and mediation before the Father.
11. That He will return in a premillennial, personal, imminent second advent.
12. That man was created sinless, but by his subsequent fall entered a state of alienation and depravity.
13. That salvation through Christ is by grace alone, through faith in His blood.
14. That entrance upon the new life in Christ is by regeneration, or the new birth.
15. That man is justified by faith.
16. That man is sanctified by the indwelling Christ through the Holy Spirit.
17. That man will be glorified at the resurrection or translation of the saints, when the Lord returns.
18. That there will be a judgment of all men.
19. That the gospel is to be preached as a witness to all the world.



They believe in total distruction of sinners in the lake of fire (annihilation) and not in an everlasting conscience hell. Erroneous and unscriptural is their view of annihilation of the sinful soul after the last judgment but are they going to be rejected by Christ one day if they believed him as their Lord and Saviour, only because they kept the Sabbath or believed the wrong teaching of annihilation?

Absolutely not, the bible tells us loud and clear that whosoever believes on the Lord Jesus will be saved. It does not say brother, unless you believe all the correct doctrines of the bible, you will not be saved.

The gosple is Jesus Christ, its a PERSON and his work on the cross that we are commended to believe, in order to be saved. Whoever believes according to the Scripture, the gosple of Jesus Christ will be saved.


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 2012/9/13 7:48Profile
EverestoSama
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 Re:

So then the Holy Spirit and Paul must have been mistaken in saying that those who teach and practice these types of SDA doctrines have fallen from grace, departed the faith, and are separated from Christ, yeah?

But purity of doctrine (didaskalia, the teachings of Jesus) isn't that important I suppose. 99% water, 1% arsenic. Thirsty? (You can just drink the water and spit out the poison.)

:P

 2012/9/13 8:55Profile
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 Re:

"Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

Thats true everyone christian who seeks to be justified by the law submits again to the yoke of slavery. The law cant justify but only condemns us, since their is no one who has kept the whole law of God perfectly, except our Lord Jesus Christ.

Brother understand that Paul was writing the Galatians who were in danger of being deceived by a false gosple. The gosple that says, "do this and you shall live and be justified", the gosple of works based on the law of Moses. Those Judizers in the Galatian Church were trying to convince the gentile christians to circumcision and keep the Law in ordor to be justified.

Now you are applying the doctrine of justification by the Law to SDT but they made it clear in their fundanmentals of faith that Justification is by Faith in Christ. Where do they say that to be saved you have to keep the law apart from faith?

Ok, they try to keep the 10 commandments, the Sabbath included. But tell me where does it say in the NT that if you keep the Sabbath and not Sunday, you will not be saved?

Or their choice to be vegitarien or not to eat pork, does that mean they are not under grace, because in their conscience they believe this OT teachings are still applying to them?

You know that there are born again messianic jews who keep the Sabbath but they know that they are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus.

Even in the apostolic church their were alot of jewish christians who were still keeping rituals and dietary laws of OT. Peter was one of them that seperated from Gentile converts when some brethren from James came to meet them. It was thanks to Paul who had the courage to withstand him in from of the others of his hypocrisy, so that others will know the freedom of Christ.

What about the Jerusalem Council that prohibited the gentile christians, "eating meat containing blood, or meat of animals not properly slain?"

What about Paul who conformed sometimes to the proscription of the law when occasion required? (1Corinthians 9:20)

He even circumcised Tithomy because of the Jews(Acts 16:1–3) and he was himself observing mosaic ritual in the Temple before he was arrested in Jerusalem (Acts 21:26).

Does that mean that Paul was bound by the law? Absolutly not, is was his way of becoming all things to all men that by all means he might save some.

I have a question for you brother. A christian who believes he is justified by faith In Jesus Christ, even though he keeps the Sabbath or is vegetarian, do you think he will lose his salvation?


- edited


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 2012/9/13 10:13Profile
proudpapa
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 Re: elected

RE:///I have a questioan for you brother. A christian who believes he is justified by faith In Jesus Christ, even though he keeps the Sabbath or is vegetarian, do you think he will lose his salvation?///


Romans 14
King James Version (KJV)

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 2012/9/13 10:16Profile
proudpapa
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 Manichaeans

the Manichaeans Gnostics forbid both certain meats and marriage they fulfill 1 Timothy 4:3
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth they also could not believe the Christ came in a literal flesh.

I wounder If Paul as John where both warning of the future infilteration of Manichaeans Gnostics doctrines into the Church.

 2012/9/13 10:23Profile
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
I have a questioan for you brother. A christian who believes he is justified by faith In Jesus Christ, even though he keeps the Sabbath or is vegetarian, do you think he will lose his salvation?



Nope. But a choice is one thing (ESPECIALLY if it's for the sake of one's testimony to those that they're reaching out to, IE, the examples you mentioned), a church doctrine is another. Those in the SDA, have swallowed these things as doctrine. And it goes much deeper than what you'll find on Wikipedia. These are not recommendations by the SDA, these are requirements.

I've heard enough testimonies from former SDA members who also state that it is something that they've been saved OUT OF, and that it's not in line with the full council of Scripture (especially the more you know if it's teaching and history).

I mean, at core, the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, and even the Roman Catholics will all say that they're saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. But are we all really meaning the same thing?

Quote:
Brother understand that Paul was writing the Galatians who were in danger of being deceived by a false gosple. The gosple that says, "do this and you shall live and be justified", the gosple of works based on the law of Moses. Those Judizers in the Galatian Church were trying to convince the gentile christians to circumcision and keep the Law in ordor to be justified.



Explain how this is any different than members in the SDA being told that they have to keep the dietary laws and the Sabbath in order to be justified? One thing they forgot to mention is that Sunday observance is considered the Mark of the Beast by Seventh Day Adventists. Yes, if you worship on Sunday, you've received the mark of the Anti-Christ. Since we're on the subject of false gospels and all...

Also, lets not even get started on the false prophet Ellen G. White that they follow.

 2012/9/13 10:28Profile
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 Re: Manichaeans

Quote:
I wounder If Paul as John where both warning of the future infilteration of Manichaeans Gnostics doctrines into the Church.



Most certainly. But they were also warning about anyone, in any time to come who would teach such things.

 2012/9/13 10:33Profile





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