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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Christians take 'beliefs' fight to European Court of Human Rights

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Heydave
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 Christians take 'beliefs' fight to European Court of Human Rights

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19472438

Here is a report about 4 British Christians who lost their jobs because of their faith in seperate cases.

Do you think should we go to the courts to defend our rights/liberty? If not, should we just allow anti-Christ(ian) rule to surpress the truth?


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Dave

 2012/9/4 5:00Profile









 Re: Christians take 'beliefs' fight to European Court of Human Rights

Quote:
Do you think should we go to the courts to defend our rights/liberty? If not, should we just allow anti-Christ(ian) rule to surpress the truth?



brother Dave, this is JUST ME, but no, i would have nothing to do with any secular court in such matters.

these courts, whether here in the US, or in the UK, have provided ample demonstration, that they are of the world, they pervert justice, they take bribes, they ignore the case of the widow's and orphans, they are wholly of "babylon" , unclean and a haunt of demons.

i once saw, where a pastor, a dear man of God who i love this very day, stumble in this regard, for quite a few years i lived in a california exurban canyon, it was a hotbed of new-ageism, and just outright satanic worship...actual covens, but there was this tiny church, been there for 60 years, and it was a "board run".

it was not my 'home' church as God told me "NO", but i still fellowshipped with the pastor, and some of the saints as God the Holy Spirit led us to conduct a thursday eve intercessory prayer meeting, which none of the board members attended...that was a small indicator.

long story short, the devil got up into the board, and they fired this dear man. He did NOTHING wrong, or out of line in Jesus, quite the contrary in fact.

so a meeting was held in the parsonage...no board member was there and this pastor indicated he was going to sue the board....in my spirit i felt this was ill-advised, and one sister actually quoted from 1st Corthinians 6.

Now the board was completely in the wrong and undoubtably backslidden and bound by the flesh and the devil, my fear was that in a secular court, in this small community, satan would use this as ammo for the new-agers, the atheists, and other lost sheep to point a finger and say, 'see? just a den of hypocrites!'

...and tragically, that is exactly what happened, it turned into a widely reported 6 year long 'circus', where the board actually counter-sued this dear man, who i love very much, but this ill thought out move, tore apart his public ministry.

to this day, there is no coherent Church in this community, plenty of buddhas, plenty of 'healing crystal" shops.....this building called a 'church' is still up, and i think you'll find the few board members still there, and whatever dear young itinerant, just out of seminary 'pastor', thay can lure in, to play church...they still have their 501c3 status, which is what i suspect was the main onus for this mess, as the board members are all well heeled, and might use the 'church' as a way to lessen their tax burden and do some financial machinations to get their money back.

i pray i'm wrong, because such a sin would give any saint with any sense a new meaning of the Words, "Fear God".

in conclusion, we can't in own weak flesh "allow" or "prevent" the god of this age to do anything it wants, except get on our knees and implore Jesus to fight the battle. they can have this body, but my soul belongs to Jesus.

if you decide to storm "Jericho" in your flesh, you'll be steam rolled, crushed and discredited, i've seen it.

much love, neil

 2012/9/4 6:55
Heydave
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 Re:

Hi Neil,

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

I think I would agree with the case you presented. I don't think as Christians we should take individuals to court if it is a personal thing, in particular never should a Christian take another Christian (even just a professor) to court.

However is it maybe the case in the news story that they are not seeking personal vindication, but want to establish religious freedom in law in regard to Christians as a whole in the country? Is there a case for this? That is more what I was thinking about.


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Dave

 2012/9/4 9:07Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
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 Re: Christians take 'beliefs' fight to European Court of Human Rights

Dave,

You are raising a very interesting question - an issue I do not recall seeing discussed here on SI.

Personally, I like to see justice prevail - the bad guys lose and the good ones win, but what does the WORD say? This should be our our touchstone on this issue as well as others.

Lawsuits by its very nature is working to force someone to do something they do not want to do. And how often does it work? It angers people who are on both sides of the issue...this does not work to bring about peace for anyone, does it? This must be why Paul talks against it, don't you think? We are to be as sheep being led to the slaughter. From our perspective this is not a beautiful sight - at least the slaughtering is not.

Neil, thanks for sharing your testimony...lots of food for thought there.


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Sandra Miller

 2012/9/4 9:47Profile
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Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
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 Re:

Hi Dave,

I think its the right of those christians to seek justice in court and they dont do any wrong if they decide to go to court. Paul used his rights as a roman citizen when they put him to jail but I believe it was the wisdome of God and the guide of the Holy Spirit that lead him in that direction because all the time he was persecuted, beaten etc., he endured whatever suffering with dignity and courage.

Often God wants us to crucify even our rights and instead of seeking justice, leave it to God the whole matter. Just think about the early christians of the apostolic and post apostolic age, when they were persecuted often for the sake of Christ. How many of them lost their own properties, possessions or even houses, not to say about the unjust tribulations they had to go through and even die for the sake of Christ in the arena.

Roman government was often the orchestrator of massive persecution against early christians. We know from Bible prophecy that we are living not only in the last days but in the last hour before antichrist comes to rule over the world and we know that the consequence of that will be massive persecution for all those who believe and are faithful to Jesus.

This time of "peace" whould be a time of preparation for christians. If anti-christian sentiment is on the rise in public or even the government, this should not caught us by surprise as if we have not been warned by the Scriptures.

The saying, "history repeats itself" its true in the context that christians will soon go through persecutions similiar to what the early church had to suffer during the Roman Empire but this time it will be more intense and even worse than the first time.



- edited


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Redi

 2012/9/4 10:34Profile
Heydave
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 Re:

Ginnyrose, Yes I agree with your general point. However by going to the European Court of Human Rights they are appealing to what is already law to be upheld. Also by doing this it also raises the awareness among people of what is going on.

Elected, I was thinking just the same thing about Paul appealing to Ceaser, which was using the law of that time.

In the UK there is a major battle going on with those who want to see all outward expression to Christ removed. The comment in the article from the guy from the National Secular Society is very illuminating and reveals the battle. They are a very vocal group in the UK.

Now we should obey God and not man when it comes to anything that conflicts, this is clear and if that means laying down our lives as a consequence, so be it. But I'm not sure we should just 'give in'.


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Dave

 2012/9/4 10:52Profile
ginnyrose
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 Re:

I suspect this issue does defy an absolute answer.

We do see how Paul did appeal to Caesar. Neither do we read of any success in his appeal. However, we do read how he did witness to those in power where it was said "thou almost persuadest me to be a Christian." This would be in fulfillment of the LORD informing Ananias how he will appear before kings. We do not read that Paul hired the services of an attorney but worked as his own. Whether people used lawyers to defend them in court back then, I am not sure but could assume they did.

But to sue as a matter of course for rights being violated - this should give one pause.

In my community it is common for people to sue another for imagined wrongs. It is also well-known that some churches will post forms in them alleging they were victims of an wrong and if won they would be entitled to some financial settlement.

My opinion...


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Sandra Miller

 2012/9/4 12:46Profile
Ceri
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Joined: 2008/10/17
Posts: 113
Notts. England.

 Re: Christians take 'beliefs' fight to European Court of Human Rights

To be honest as a Britisher I am disgusted that two of the cases is only to do with the wearing a necklace with a cross on. One a british Airways employee (which has been going on for more years than it deserves the attention for) and the other a nurse.

This has nothing to do with religious persecution as is being claimed by them but they are both in violation of uniform codes in place for many many years which as a Christian they should have set even more of an example in honouring.

Having done work experience on a surgical ward and also been a carer in a nursing home the wearing of jewellery is strictly forbidden for your own safety!
Patients do grab at you, hair pulled, arms bruised, clothing grabbed, head locks etc.
Can you imagine being in such a position of having a necklace grabbed at by a adgitated person.
We were warned of nurses having dangly earrings ripped out and ending up needing plastic surgery because of the 'cauliflower ears' that then developed.
To be honest I am disgusted at the fuss they have made when the bible clearly states we do not hold onto graven images - our faith is not in the outward adorning - we worship in Spirit and in truth not by holding onto an item of jewellery, we do not need to wear a crucifix to prove our faith! These two cases are giving Christians a bad name and needlessly so when there are genuine cases that do deserve our prayer.


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Ceri Elaine

 2012/9/4 17:10Profile









 Re:

The fact is the persecuted in places like Eritrea, China, Iran, N. Korea, or other restricted nations do not have the luxury to petition a political court. All to often it will be the courts handing down the sentences of imprisonment or death. This being for one's faith in Christ.
It is only in the west we cry foul and run to the courts and demand our freedom to be free from persecution. In actuality Christ said if they persecuted me they will persecute those who follow Christ. Also the courts, at least in America, are shifting to a hostle attitude toward believers who bring redress of grievances to them.

We in the west need to quit whining when persecution comes. Embrace. And let God use it for its intended purpose in our lives.

Just my thoughts.

Bearmaster.

 2012/9/4 18:40
Heydave
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 Re:

It seems that the weight of opinion in the posts is that it is wrong for these people to take their cases to the european Court and maybe that is the right way for us to lean. Better to be wronged than to do wrong in trying to get justice should probably be our thinking.

Ceri, I take your point about the wearing of crosses being not that important and or course it is not really 'persucution' in any sense. However I'm not sure anyone is claiming persecution, but rather discrimination. If it is the case that it was a blanket prohibition on all employees then they have no case to argue. However I'm not convinced that it was, particularly with an arline check-in clerk...but I may be wrong.

I know of many Christians that wear a symbol of some sort (I don't) like a fish or a cross with a dove, etc. I don't think these are considered 'graven images', but rather a way of giving an outward sign that they are a believer. Obviously our lives and how we live and what we say is a much more important witness to Christ than any symbol, but I know God has used such things to open up opportunities to witness. Each one should be led to do what they believe is right in this regard and we should not judge wrongly a persons motive in doing this.

A crucifix is a whole different thing! It is a Roman Catholic superstitious icon and it seems that this is what the nurse was wearing.

Maybe putting all these four cases together confuses the issues and it does seem strange that the organisation, 'Christian Concern', which is by it's statement of faith evangelical, mixes togther evangelical and liberal/nominal christians as one entity.


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Dave

 2012/9/5 6:26Profile





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