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 Jeremy

when you asked

Quote:
To echo Mike's comments I would like to ask just what do you think the cross was all about?



was that question directed to me?

coz I will be delighted to answer that.

The Cross came to make everyday a Yom Kippur, and the Branch was a Bridge to the Gentiles.

I was reading thru your post and it just grieved me to the marrow, coz it just boxes God into a malorific Angry One. I guess what really grieves me is that you and I have two TOTALLY divurgent views on Whom God is, (among other wildly divurgent views..lol)

do you really believe this comment you made?

Quote:
Any sins I've committed years ago that made Him angry then, He's still angry at. Not only is He angry, He's infinitely angry, and He is also justly angry.



You talk about the Cross, the Cross means that God is NO LONGER angry at Jeremy. If you wanna believe that He still stews over your sins..okay, but you don't have to. That was all settled up the day you confessed Christ.

 2005/2/22 1:33
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 in that day

Isa 12:1-6 KJV
(1) And [u]in that day[/u] thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me.
(2) Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
(3) Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.
(4) And [u]in that day[/u] shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.
(5) Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth.
(6) Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

What 'day' do we think he had in mind?
How about this one?

[u]In that day[/u] ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (Joh 14:20 ASV)

And [u]in that day[/u] ye shall ask me no question. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if ye shall ask anything of the Father, he will give it you in my name. (Joh 16:23 ASV)

[u]In that day[/u] ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you; (Joh 16:26 ASV)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/22 3:59Profile
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 Re: in that day

Thanks Ron,

If we fail to grasp that...

Awoke with a tremendous sense of what this is at the core and it is falsehood. This ought to rank equal with any other false doctrine. Perhaps a bit to simplistic and even an assumption to slap a stereotype on, but the leaning sounds eerily like universalism.

In one sense the very essence of the cross, God's just wrath poured out on the perfect man, our Lord and savior...

If we cannot pause and see and even attempt to let that sink into our very being. All of opinions our as worthless as filthy rags, that hasn't changed one iota.

Eph 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Eph 5:3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.
Eph 5:4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
Eph 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Eph 5:6 [b]Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience[/b].

Our human misplaced anger and the anger of the Lord are diametrically opposed. If we attempt to set ourselves up as ruler and judge then we as blood bought, and shall we not pause again at the [i]cost[/i]?, regenerate, born again believers usurp the Lords rightful place on the throne... Are we to believe that the Lord only looks with disapproval? A mere grieving of sadness?

Heb 10:26 [b]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.[/b]

This is rank heresy. Just as bad as the prosperity 'gospel', works salvation, denial that Jesus came in the flesh or any other deadly error. At one point there was an equating of Martin Luther and the heretic label put upon him and that this whole monstrous discourse was on equal footing. Nonsense. This needs a tent peg driven through it before it spreads it's disease any further.

Rev 6:9 And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11 Then a long white robe was given to them, and it was said to them that they should rest yet a while, until also their fellow servants and their brothers, who were about to be killed as also they were, should complete their course.
Rev 6:12 And I saw when He opened the sixth seal, that there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became like blood.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, like a fig tree casting its untimely figs, being shaken by a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 Then the sky was split like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island were removed out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the magnates and the high-ranking military men, and the rich and the mighty, and every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the crags of the mountains.
Rev 6:16 And they said to the mountains and crags, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who shall be able to stand?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Absoluteness of Immorality and Holiness (Revelation 21:7-8)

Immorality and holiness are absolute, you cannot get behind them. When Our Lord talks about the radical evil of the human heart (e.g. Mark 7:21-22), it is a revelation we know nothing of; it comes to the shores of our lives in immorality and holiness. Immorality has its seat in every one of us, not in some of us. If a man is not holy, he is immoral, no matter how good he may seem. Immorality is at the basis of the whole thing; if it does not show itself outwardly, it will show itself before God. The New Testament teaches that no man or woman is safe apart from Jesus Christ because there is treachery on the inside. *“Out of the heart of men, proceed. . . .” The majority of us are grossly ignorant about the possibilities of evil in the heart. Never trust your common sense when the statements of Jesus contradict it, and when you preach see that you base your preaching on the revelation of Jesus Christ, not on the sweet innocence of human nature. When you hear a man cry out, like the publican of old, “God be merciful to me a sinner,” you have the problem of the whole universe. That man has reached the realization of himself at last, he knows that he is a guilty, immoral type of man and needs saving. Never take anyone to be good, and above all never take yourself to be good. Natural goodness will always break, always disappoint, why? Because the Bible tells us that “the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Never trust anything in yourself that God has not placed there through the regeneration of Our Lord Jesus Christ; and never trust anything saving that in anyone else.

That is the stern platform you have to stand on when you present the truth of God, and it will resolve you on to a lonely platform, because your message will be craved for but its way of being presented will be resented. The Gospel of Jesus Christ awakens an intense craving and an equally intense resentment. Base on personal love for the Lord, not on personal love for men. Personal love for men will make you call immorality a weakness, and holiness a mere aspiration; personal love for the Lord will make you call immorality devilish, and holiness the only thing that can stand in the light of God. The only safety for the preacher is to face his soul not with his people, or even with his message, but to face his soul with his Saviour all the time.

Chambers, O. Approved unto God.


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Mike Balog

 2005/2/22 7:53Profile
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 Re:

There is a Spurgeon sermon here which might keep the balance;
"The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." - Nahum 1:3.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/22 9:06Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Our human misplaced anger and the anger of the Lord are diametrically opposed...



Good point Mike. When we read verses like, "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven...", we as humans have a hard time understanding wrath as anything other than some emotional outburst. We have a hard time believing that anger and love can be expressed together.

God cannot abide sin, he doesn't play with sin, he doesn't wink at sin. As a compass points to the north, God's settled reaction to sin is the outpouring and the unfolding of His wrath.

This is the place where Paul chose to begin his description of the gospel in his letter to the Romans. After saying, and I'm paraphrasing here, "I am pleased to announce the good news of the gospel" (Rom 1:16), Paul immediately launches into "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men..."(v.18).

If this is where Paul chose to begin shouldn't we begin there also?

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2005/2/22 9:52Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
If this is where Paul chose to begin shouldn't we begin there also?



Yes. And as the passage goes on and Paul builds his point he preaches until all are made to know that we all are under sin. We have all held the truth in unrighteousness. Beginning as a small child we have turned aside from the counsel of our conscience into the path of rebellion. Therefore we deserve His wrath. Yet, Christ has been the receptient of that wrath. Every transgression and disobedience must receive a just recompense of reward, and Christ has been the propitiation for our sin. His is the price paid to reconcile our sin debt and therefore reconcile us to God. The cross is the place where we truly see the evidence of God's hatred of sin. What could be more evident? We stand in the shadow (as it were) of the wrath of God cast by Jesus Christ who has shielded us from His fierce anger. As the old hymn says:

Rock of Ages cleft for me
Let me hide myself in Thee
Let the water and the blood
From Thy wounded side which flowed
Be of sin the double cure
save from wrath and make me pure

Because we are in Him we shall be saved from wrath through Him.


God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/2/22 10:09Profile
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 Re: Jeremy

Hi Neilgin1,

Quote:
was that question directed to me?



No actually I was asking Karl what he thought the cross was for if it's purpose was not to be a propitiation for the wrath of God.

I think you need to read my post one more time. I do believe in the infinite mercies of God, but the topic of this thread is that God is no longer angry at sinners, in fact, according to Karl, He never was angry at sinners. A whole post about the Grace of God would have been out of place here.

I do not believe that God is currently angry at me at all. The second time you quoted me you missed the context of that statement. The subject was that of my condition before God should I choose to stand on my own without Christ. I was attempting to show that if I try to satisfy the wrath of God by myself then His justice will require a eternity of payment from me from which I'll never escape his anger and wrath.

Quote:
[i]If I a finite man choose to stand alone[/i] in this wrath to pay an infinite price I would be altogether destroyed in Hell and forced to pay forever in the furnace of the wrath of a justly angered God. [b]But the depth of the mercies of God are shown to me that while I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me.[/b] Only an infinite being could pay an infinite price, and for the joy set before Him he endured the cross, scorning it's shame, and became the only sacrifice that could satisfy the wrath of God and not only cover, but remove my sin.


This was the following context of my statement you quoted..



My point was that the wrath of God is revealed against all men but it CAN be satisfied, but only in the cross. It's like a Divine cancellation. An infinite price was owed and only and infinite being could pay the price. Jesus sacrifice was so that it can actually remove our sin. When the Father sees us, it's as though we have never sinned when we trust in Jesus. Therefore His wrath is satisfied and His mercies and grace are rich toward us.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/2/22 10:23Profile
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 Re:

Hi Ron

Quote:
If this is where Paul chose to begin shouldn't we begin there also?


mmm? as long as we remember that the people he was intending to preach to were 'beloved of God, called to be saints'.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/22 10:49Profile
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 Re:

Hi Hulsey

Quote:
My point was that the wrath of God is revealed against all men but it CAN be satisfied, but only in the cross. It's like a Divine cancellation. An infinite price was owed and only and infinite being could pay the price.


I think we may be in the gap between redemption accomplished and redemption applied. Do we tell the sinner that he needs to be redeemed or that he has been? I tell him that there is a father waiting to receive him. I know that he must come to himself and rise and go and say to his father 'I have sinned', But I want to assure him that there is room in the father's house and that he needs to come home.

My main fear in all this is that we shall attempt to do the Spirit's work for Him. My most conscious season of repentance was long after I had 'come home'. It was certainly the goodness of God that led me to repentance.

There is a quotation from John Bunyan that I quoted in another thread;

"Not the overheavy load of sin, but the discovery of mercy; not the roaring of devil, but the drawing of the Father, that makes a man come to Jesus Christ." John Bunyan, The Water of Life.

Here's another one from Martin Luther;
"You must preach as a mother suckles her child".

I know this is not the whole story, but I do not find the blanket condemnation of the unsaved and the relentless message of an angry God in my New Testament.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/22 11:12Profile
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 Re:

Hi philo,

I agree with you. The reason for my strong rhetoric on the wrath of God was only in response to the the misunderstanding in the original post. I was attempting to be as concise as possible without laboring the point. I agree totally with you that it's the kindness and the mercy of God that leads to repentance.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/2/22 11:24Profile





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