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 Is God really angry?

Greetings Friends,

We have for the last 200 years have had nothing but preaching on the judgment of God rather then the love of God. Why is God so angry? Is He angry because we sin? After all are we not "predestined to be conformed into the image of His dear Son". If that is true, then it would be foolish for God to get angry, after all He is far more intelligent then us puny humans with our limited imaginations.

I am convinced that God is not angry as we suppose. I am confident that God is NOT angry with sinners nor is He angry with saints. If He has beef with anyone it would be those who have "tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of His Holiness" and have taken that which was sacred and cast it down as profane.

The sinner has not chosen to live in darkness, but rather they were born in it, they like us, were shapen in iniquity. Why must the sinner be punished for what one man did?

I know for a fact that God WAS angry with a people that covenant with Him and they wouldn't keep their end of the deal, the wrath of God was poured out upon that generation (namely the Jews).

Instead of us making a convenant with God, in which we couldn't keep in the first place, Christ bearing record that we shouldn't even make a vow. If the vows were removed from the marriage ceremony alot more marriages would not see divorce, we simply cannot keep a vow.

God in Christ came and confirmed the covenant with many in the last week that Christ came to fulfill. And thank God He did, because He was the only one who is faithful to keep it, otherwise we'd all be dead.

God who is rich in mercy didn't want to cast off His people, He loved the people. For God so loved the world (the Jews) that He gave His only begotten Son.........."

Christ death and complete and utter fulfillment of all Old Testement law and the prophets was finished.

What is the law and the prophets, it is Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

This is why I do not believe that God is angry with sinners or even with us. Christ made an end of sins. Oh yes, sin abounds, but sin is no longer a constant, sin has been atoned for for ever thru the blood of Jesus Christ.

That's why Paul had to throw this thought in, "Shall we sin that grace may abound". If he hadn't said this, we would have the idea that in order for God to have a continous supply of grace towards us we would have to continue sinning.

But salvation does not stop at receiving Christ in our lives, the experince goes further, in fact there is more to experince we have just settled in our little ways, and it's not our fault. Our fore fathers have relaxed, and we really don't know anything beyond their experince, but some of us are venturing out into the deep saying, "LORD if it is you, bid me to come out to you".

And believe me when you want to know who God is and His ways, it's dark, and the shadow of death is all around you and tho it would appear that our abode is in hell (some of you know exactly what I am talking about), but we hear Jesus saying, "Be of good courage, I have overcome the world".

No, God has no problem with sin, He dealt it with it.

The reason why preachers preach hell and damnation and condemning everyone to it has nothing to do with the love of God, no sir. It has to with their legalistic lifestyle, they will compass land and sea to get you to conform to their way of life, and they do get a follwing NOT according to the love and testimony of God but thru the fear of man. Oh don't get me wrong, there is eternal life to gain and a hell to shun, but these scare tactics are not of God. The Good News is the Good News, spread the seed and let the Spirit fall on it, and if it it takes root then so be it, but can you force a seed to take root, no, you can only plant the thing and water it, other then than that it is totally up to that seed, if it's got a good germ, it will germinate, if not then it will rot.

But some seeds are preserved in the dust, and they lay hidden in dry parched earth, and soon as the rains come, then a harvest can be reaped.

The wrath of man will not produce the righteousness of God. Do you know why that was spoken by James? Because James saw these men preaching hell and damnation to others and they themselves not taking heed themselves.

I have preached to others this way years ago, and I was just as religious as the hypocrites. I have watched men who rarely preached the love of Christ but their tongues spewing out wrath because people were not living up to their STANDARDS.

I don't believe in a wishy washy gospel, but their needs to be a balance. People are hurting today in the churches, homosexuals crying for help and all we offer them is hell and damnation. Girls secretly having abortions because the Church will condemn them for getting pregnant.

Christ never preached hell and damnation to the sinner, He preached it only to the hypocrites. He offered hope and forgiveness to the sinner. The sinner knows what they are, it is the hypocrite who doesn't know, that is why they are called the "Blind".

I know that God is not angry with sinners nor is He angry with His saints.

I know I have stepped on a lot of religious toes.

 2005/2/21 19:32









 Re: Is God really angry?

Normally I try to avoid contraversy, but I felt obligated to post.

I wanted to share an article that I wrote called "The Anger of the Lord". I know I've mentioned it before but it fits in perfect here. It's an in depth study on the biblical truth of God's righteous and holy anger which burns every day against sinners (Ps 7:11).

It's on SermonIndex. Here is the link to it:

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=304

There are four questions I answer:

1) Is the anger of God biblical and towards who is it directed?

2) How often is the Lord provoked to anger?

3) How will God’s anger affect wicked men?

4) Will the anger of God burn forever?

 2005/2/21 19:59
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Is God really angry?

This is going to be a really long thread I am supposing...

Quote:
We have for the last 200 years have had nothing but preaching on the judgment of God rather then the love of God. Why is God so angry? Is He angry because we sin? After all are we not "predestined to be conformed into the image of His dear Son". If that is true, then it would be foolish for God to get angry, after all He is far more intelligent then us puny humans with our limited imaginations.



We have? Seems to me the opposite is true.
Quote:
Is He angry because we sin?


Exactly!
Quote:
After all are we not "predestined to be conformed into the image of His dear Son"

That is true but doesn't apply to what you are talking about here nor does the follow up, that it's 'foolish'?! of God to get angry?
Quote:
I am convinced that God is not angry as we suppose. I am confident that God is NOT angry with sinners nor is He angry with saints.


Surely this is not what scripture teaches.
Quote:
The sinner has not chosen to live in darkness, but rather they were born in it, they like us, were shapen in iniquity. Why must the sinner be punished for what one man did?


No, they, you, us, we all [i]choose[/i] to disobey and sin against God and that makes us responsible and accountable. You have a complete misunderstanding of the nature of sin. This whole thing is wrought with problems, hard to know where to begin. Am all for balance but this is way off.

This seems to be a theology by patchwork and being tempted to answer it in that same way is not going to help anything. Will let our more learned members see if they can't help you here.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/2/21 20:26Profile
geddingsm
Member



Joined: 2003/11/3
Posts: 61
south carolina

 Re: anger of God

Sounds alot like the "God is not mad and has a wonderful plan for your life gospel". It seems to me that's what we've been hearing ALOT more than God's judgement in recent years.


_________________
marvin geddings

 2005/2/21 20:32Profile









 Re:

My dear Brother

There is a vast difference between a sinner and a wicked person.

A sinner is one who has a sinful nature and who is born into it thru the family of Adam.

A wicked person is someone who has knowledge of God, who had an encounter with God, (hence the nature of Satan) but totally rejects the message of salvation to him. Hebrews 6:7-8

But as for God's anger, He said Himself thru David, "He will not always chide: neither will he keep His anger forever, He has not dealt with us after our sins......" Psalms 103:9-10

God's anger was towards a people that broke a covenant that they made with Him.

When Christ died the cross God's chiding had ended, and His wrath was appeased thru the act of Jesus Christ.

When I punish my children, do I do what my dad used to do, take his belt off and whip to a pulp without no mercy, my dad had no mercy in him. But my heavenly Father is rich in mercy, slow to anger, He is not punishing me, He is correcting me and causing me to know His ways thru the trial. Afterwards I shall come forth as gold, but not knowing His anger and wrath, but knowing that the purpose of putting me thru that was so that I could be just like Jesus.

Oh don't get me wrong, it feels like God is angry with me, but I must not walk by those feelings, but I must walk by faith and believe that He is working all things out for my good, after all, it is not He that needs the changing but me.

Keep sharing my brother your thoughts are appreciated and thanks for the link.

Karl

 2005/2/21 20:35
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Nature of Sin

Perhaps this might be of some help:

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4634&forum=35]The Nature of sin - WHAT IS SIN????[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/2/21 20:35Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Calling Mr. Bailey...

Karl,

There is still a huge gap in your theology here.

Quote:
There is a vast difference between a sinner and a wicked person.


Where do you find that?
Quote:
A wicked person is someone who has knowledge of God, who had an encounter with God, (hence the nature of Satan) but totally rejects the message of salvation to him. Hebrews 6:7-8



It seems that you are trying to take certain verses and make them into blanket statements. All these things have to be taken with the consideration of the context of which they were spoken in and measured with and against the whole of scripture. What you are doing is esogesis, not exegesis.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/2/21 20:52Profile
disciplejosh
Member



Joined: 2003/6/13
Posts: 210
Southern California

 Re: Is God really angry?

Quote:
Instead of us making a convenant with God, in which we couldn't keep in the first place, Christ bearing record that we shouldn't even make a vow. If the vows were removed from the marriage ceremony alot more marriages would not see divorce, we simply cannot keep a vow.



Just thought of an 11 page 'pamphlet' by A. W. Tozer when I read this above quote from your post. Please take the time to prayerfully read this. (I'll take the plunge and post my first huge run-on post). Forgive me.

[b]"Five Vows for Spiritual Power Affirmations for Personal Revival [/b]
[b]By A.W. Tozer[/b]
SOME PEOPLE OBJECT to taking vows, but in the Bible you will find many great men of God directed by covenants, promises, vows and pledges. The psalmist was not averse to the taking of vows: “Thy vows are upon me, O God,” he said. “I will render my praises unto thee” (Psalm 56:12).

My counsel in this matter is that if you are really concerned about spiritual improvement—the gaining of new power, new life, new joy and new personal revival within your heart—you will do well to make certain vows and proceed to keep them. If you should fail, go down in humility and repent and start over. But always keep these vows before you. They will help harmonize your heart with the vast powers that flow out and down from the throne where Christ sits at the right hand of God.

A carnal man refuses the discipline of such commitments. He says, “I want to be free. I don’t want to lay any vows upon myself; I don’t believe in it. It is legalism.” Well, let me paint a picture of two men.

One of them will not take vows. He will not accept any responsibility. He wants to be free. And he is free, in a measure—just as a tramp is free. The tramp is free to sit on a park bench by day, sleep on a newspaper by night, get chased out of town on Thursday morning, and find his way up a set of creaky stairs in some flophouse on Thursday night. Such a man is free, but he is also useless. He clutters up the world whose air he breathes.

Let’s look at another man—maybe a president or prime minister or any great man who carries upon himself the weight of government. Such men are not free. But in the sacrifice of their freedom they step up their power. If they insist upon being free, they can be free, just like the tramp. But they choose rather to be bound.

There are many religious tramps in the world who will not be bound by anything. They have turned the grace of God into personal license. But the great souls are ones who have gone reverently to God with the understanding that in their flesh dwells no good thing. And they know that without God’s enablement any vows taken would be broken before sundown. Nevertheless, believing in God, reverently they took certain sacred vows. This is the way of spiritual power.

Now there are five vows I have in mind which we do well to make and keep. The first is: Deal thoroughly with sin. Sin has been driven underground these days and has come up with a new name and face. You may be subjected to this phenomenon in the schools. Sin is being called by various fancy names—anything but what it really is. For example, men don’t get under conviction any more; they get a guilt complex. Instead of confessing their guilt to God and getting rid of it, they lie on a couch and try to tell a man who ought to know better all about themselves. It comes out after a while that they were deeply disappointed when they were two years old or some such thing. That’s supposed to make them better.

The whole thing is ridiculous, because sin is still the ancient enemy of the soul. It has never changed. We’ve got to deal firmly with sin in our lives. Let’s remember that. “The kingdom of God is not meat and drink,” said Paul, “but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” (Romans 14:17). Righteousness lies at the door of the kingdom of God. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4, 20).

This is not to preach sinless perfection. This is to say that every known sin is to be named, identified and repudiated, and that we must trust God for deliverance from it, so that there is no conscious, deliberate sin anywhere in our lives. It is absolutely necessary that we deal thus, because God is a holy God and sin is on the throne of the world.

So don’t call your sins by some other name. If you’re jealous, call it jealousy. If you tend to pity yourself and feel that you are not appreciated, but are like a flower born to blush unseen and waste your sweetness on the desert air, call it what it is—self-pity.

There is resentfulness. If you’re resentful, admit it. I have met people who live in a state of sputtering indignation most of the time. I know of a preacher who acts like a hen thrown out of the nest. He keeps running in all directions clucking and complaining—somebody is always doing him wrong. Well, if you have got that spirit, you must deal with it now. You must get that out of you. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin. Instead of covering it up and trying to find a Greek marginal rendering somewhere to hide it under, call it by its right name and get rid of it by the grace of God.

And then there is your temper. Don’t call it indignation. Don’t try to christen it by some other name. Call it what it is. Because if you have a bad temper you will either get rid of it or it will get rid of much of your spirituality and most of your joy.

So let’s deal with sin thoroughly. Let’s be perfectly candid. God loves candid people.

Now the second vow is: Never own anything. I do not mean by this that you cannot have things. I mean that you ought to get delivered from the sense of possessing them. This sense of possessing is what hinders us. All babies are born with their fists clenched, and it seems to me it means: “This is mine!” One of the first things they say is “mine” in an angry voice. That sense of “This is mine” is a very injurious thing to the spirit. If you can get rid of it so that you have no feeling of possessing anything, there will come a great sense of freedom and liberty into your life.

Now don’t think that you must sell all that you have and give it to charity. No, God will let you have your car and your business, your practice and your position, whatever it may be, provided you understand that it is not yours at all, but His, and all you are doing is just working for Him. You can be restful about it then, because we never need to worry about losing anything that belongs to someone else. If it is yours, you’re always looking in your hand to see if it’s still there. If it’s God’s you no longer need to worry about it.

Let me point out some things you’ll have to turn over to God. Property is one thing. Some of the dear Lord’s children are being held back because there’s a ball and chain on their legs. If it’s a man, it’s his big car and fine home. If it’s a woman it’s her china and her Louis XIV furniture and all the rest. Take that vase for instance. There it stands, and if anybody knocked it off and broke it the poor owner would probably lose five years from her life!

The third vow is this: Never defend yourself. We’re all born with a desire to defend ourselves. And if you insist upon defending yourself, God will let you do it. But if you turn the defense of yourself over to God He will defend you. He told Moses once, in Exodus 23:22: “I will be an enemy unto thine enemies and an adversary to thine adversaries.”

A long time ago the Lord and I went through the twenty third chapter of Exodus together and He gave it to me. For thirty years now it has been a source of untold blessing to my life. I don’t have to fight. The Lord does the fighting for me. And He’ll do the same for you. He will be an enemy to Your enemy and an adversary to your adversary, and you’ll never need to defend yourself.

What do we defend? Well, we defend our service, and particularly we defend our reputation. Your reputation is what people think you are, and if a story gets out about you the big temptation is to try to run it down. But you know, running down the source of a story is a hopeless task. Absolutely hopeless! It’s like trying to find the bird after you’ve found the feather on your lawn. You can’t do it. But if you’ll turn yourself wholly over to the Lord He will defend you completely and see to it that no one will harm you. “No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper.” He says, and “every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn” (Isaiah 54:17).

Henry Suso was a great Christian of other days. Once he was seeking what some Christians have told me they are seeking—to know God better. Let’s put it like this: you are seeking to have a religious awakening within your spirit that will thrust you farther out into the deep things of God. Well, as Henry Suso was seeking God, people started telling evil stories about the man, and it grieved him so that he wept bitter tears and had great sorrow of heart.

Then one day he looked out the window and saw a dog playing on the lawn. The dog had a mat, and kept picking the mat up, tossing it over his shoulder, running and getting it, tossing it some more, picking it up and tossing it again. God said to Henry Suso, “That mat is your reputation, and I am letting the dogs of sin tear your reputation to shreds and toss it all over the lawn for your own good. One of these days things will change.”

And things did change. It was not very long before people who were tearing his reputation were confounded, and Suso rose into a place that made him a power in his day and a great blessing still to those who sing his hymns and read his works.

Next vow: Never pass anything on about anybody else that will hurt him. “Love covers a multitude of sins” (1 Peter 4:8). The talebearer has no place in God’s favor. If you know something that would hinder or hurt the reputation of one of God’s children, bury it forever. Find a little garden out back a little spot somewhere—and when somebody comes around with an evil story, take it out and bury it, and say, “Here lies in peace the story about my brother.” God will take care of it. “With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged” (Matthew 7:2).

If you want God to be good to you, you are going to have to be good to His children. You say, “That’s not grace.” Well, grace gets you into the kingdom of God. That is unmerited favor. But after you are seated at the Father’s table He expects to teach you table manners. And He won’t let you eat unless you obey the etiquette of the table. And what is that? The etiquette of the table is that you don’t tell stories about the brother who is sitting at the table with you—no matter what his denomination, or nationality or background.

Our next vow is: Never accept any glory. God is jealous of His glory and Hewill not give His glory to another. He will not even share His glory with another. It is quite natural, I should say, for people to hope that maybe their Christian service will give them a chance to display their talents. True, they want to serve the Lord. But they also want other people to know they are serving the Lord. They want to have a reputation among the saints. That is very dangerous ground—seeking a reputation among the saints. It’s bad enough to seek a reputation in the world, but it’s worse to seek a reputation among the people of God, Our Lord gave up His reputation, and so must we.

Meister Eckhart once preached a sermon on Christ cleansing the temple. He said, “Now there was nothing wrong with those men selling and buying there. There was nothing wrong with exchanging money there; it had to be. The sin lay in their doing it for profit. They got a percentage on serving the Lord.” And then he made the application: “Anybody that serves for a commission, for what little bit of glory he can get out of it, is a merchant and he ought to be cast out of the temple.”

I go along with this. If you’re serving the Lord, and yet slyly—perhaps scarcely known to you—you’re hoping to get just a little five percent commission, then look out! It will chill the power of God in your spirit. You must determine that you will never take any glory, but see that God gets it all.

Now the easiest possible thing is to give a message like this. The hard thing is to make it work in one’s own life. Remember that these five vows are not something you write in the back of your Bible and forget. They’ve got to be written in your own blood. They have to be made final, irrevocable. If it only comes off the surface it’s no good. Much of our promises come off the surface. No, no. Let it come out of the depths of your heart, the deep depths of your spirit.

These vows cut against the old human nature. They introduce the cross into your life. And nobody ever walks back from carrying his cross—nobody, comes back. When you make these vows, remember: They introduce the cross into your life, they strike at the heart of your self-life and there is never a place to go back to. And I say, “Woe to the triflers!”

In America—and maybe in other places, too—so many people are saying, “Try Jesus, try God!” Triflers, experimenters, tasters they are. Like a rabbit with a half dozen holes so if one is stopped up he can flee to another! No! From the cross there is no place to flee. You don’t “try” Jesus. He’s not there to be experimental with. Christ is not on trial. You are. I am. He’s not! God raised Him from the dead and forever confirmed His deity and sealed Him and set Him at His own right hand as Lord and Christ. Turn everything over to Him and you’ll find your life begin to lift. You’ll blossom in a wonderful way.

Now, if you happen to be one of those on whom God had laid His hand for a deeper life, a more powerful life, a fuller life, then I wonder if you would be willing to pray this kind of prayer: “O God, glorify Thyself at my expense. Send me the bill—anything, Lord. I set no price. I will not dicker or bargain. Glorify Thyself, I’ll take the consequence .

This kind of praying is simple, but it’s deep and wonderful and powerful. I believe, if you can pray a prayer like that, it will be the ramp from which you can take off into higher heights and bluer skies in the things of the Spirit."


_________________
Josh

 2005/2/21 21:15Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
A wicked person is someone who has knowledge of God, who had an encounter with God,




Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Isa 65:20 ... but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day.

The word wicked is rasha` {raw-shaw'} and means 1) wicked, criminal

a) guilty one, one guilty of crime (subst)

b) wicked (hostile to God)

c) wicked, guilty of sin (against God or man)

1John 3:4 for sin is the transgression of the law.

A wicked person is one who is guilty of sin. Ex. Thou shalt not lie.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/2/21 21:20Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Some wisdom

Thank you Josh.

Recall this and a well put insert here.
I do hope that we can all take it to heart. A great review to renew some vows, some that I found perfectly applicable personally.

Quote:
Christ is not on trial. You are. I am. He’s not!



That sum's it up very well.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/2/21 21:56Profile





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