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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine :  to hold any one guilty of sin for not doing what he could not do, belongs to the height of iniquity

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brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

hi stevyp,, nice to read your last post ,resonates much with my heart

brother you said you persue an inward purity ,and i see by your post a verry high standered , god blees you in your goal

have you acheieved it ,and are you talking about absalut sinless perfection ,,

blessings ,

 2012/9/3 2:26Profile









 Re: to hold any one guilty of sin for not doing what he could not do, belongs to the

Quote:
I honestly have never studied the writings of Augustine and have only a cursory knowledge of some of the teachings and writings of the early church fathers. One only has so many hours in a day and a lot of commitments. So, I spend most of my time purely in the Word. I am not one that is much for studying various theological perspectives. twayneb.



Strange to say but I completely agree with you about how we use our time. Theological perspectives must in the end be a futile endeavour if we pursue understanding by that means. The church is so established on the earth that there are relatively few men who have been used by whatever means to contend for the faith in the way the early Fathers of the Catholic Church have been used. Even the great scholars who translated the bible into English, firstly in the 14th century and thereafter in various seasons, or else those men who were used to restore apostolic truths to the Church, were few in number. Much more prevalent are those who felt it necessary to follow these few men as a ministry of contention. It may well be that in divers times this contending was necessary of else beneficial. Today it really does seem that western culture itself has moved into a place where societal acceptance of rational goodness and decency, produced by the light of Christ, expressed in laws and a willingness to be constrained by these things, is all but passing away. Replacing it is pure humanistic rationalism on the one hand, and an apostate church on the other! Apart from these two things, their lies as always a remnant of God both within Israel and the Church, who are not able to bow the knee to men or a false gospel!

 2012/9/3 5:52









 Re: to hold any one guilty of sin for not doing what he could not do, belongs to the

Quote:
a question ,,do you think that agustine was ever bornagain

and im not sure if you answerd this question ,,,,do you think he changed his mind about his early teachings Brother Gary.



Yes brother I do believe that Augustine both knew and understood very well the reality of Christ. So I cannot easily imagine that he didn’t have a new life in Christ. Augustine knew how to contend for the gospel and much of his efforts laid a written basis for believing that he was born again.

To make sense of Augustine as a man as well as a bishop necessitates placing him in context of his day. This is almost an impossible task clearly as “his day” is long gone. Academic insights may help if you can believe what you are reading and understand the whole motive of the historical presenter. This too requires a full knowledge of the presenter as well and so it goes on into pure vanity or else confusion. What you can do however is ask God Himself to show you what it is that He would have you to do in this life, which may be mundane as well as sacred. You can also examine your time in Christ to date and ask yourself what the direction of your trust in Christ really is. In short we should know what is God’s calling in our lives beyond what is ordinary and necessary for the mundane. We need to know what is necessary for the sacred as well.

Grounded in this way as I have described it you may be able to see that Augustine was a man. That whilst he was profoundly well read and had a great intellect, as well as an ability to resist heresy in his day, one might be less inclined to hold him up as an icon and realise his humanity if you understood your own humanity as God sees it. This will almost certainly lead to brokenness in some measure. Brokenness before God seems to take at least two forms. Both require God’s intervention in our lives.

The Art Katz testimony which you shared regarding him being laid out in a moment of utter illumination of God is a good example of the first type. Art was going to preach on the subject of mercy. I imagine that by the time the Lord had done with him, he was quiet certain about the mercy of God. The Kleenex tissues are a testimony to that. What really strikes me though is how he felt it necessary to go to the meeting where he was going to preach on mercy of God by a different route so as not to have to come into contact with others on the way. This need speaks of God’s Holiness and so I believe that what Art saw through that small opening of the veil which separates men from the Glory of God, was God Himself. That is to say he saw the true Holiness of God. All such seeing produces a deep wrenching of the soul and exposes the man who so sees to his own true condition as a man. This is God’s mercy and it results in many tears. Not the shaking of the shoulders, but the breaking open of the heart before God. Something only God Himself is able to do.

The second kind of brokenness does produce as its initial effect the shaking of the shoulders. In that because we are weeping for ourselves our whole bodies become caught up in the event. This is when God grants us repentance, though for many seasons or few we have been hard hearted and wandered away from the One who gave His life for us, nevertheless God still grants repentance where it is truly sought. Having tasted the good things of God and having understood even for one hour that Christ has died for us to redeem us to the Father in Heaven, if we somehow or other come to prefer the filthy and unclean thing of the world, the flesh and in some cases the Devil, we may well come to a place where we need to repent. It may not take a great deal of denying God to produce such a need to repent, what we have been given by God may well produce a willingness to turn back very quickly.

Isaiah cried out before the altar when he said “Woe is me for I am a man of unclean lips and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips, for mine eyes have seen the King, The Lord of Hosts”. This cry of Isaiah did not produce bitterness of the soul, but it did reveal to him his true condition. For Art Katz preaching on God’s mercy that day perhaps reflected that it was God’s intention to show mercy to more than one man; even those who were to hear a man. So that as Isaiah heard the words “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” perhaps Art needed this type of dealing of God. Only a man who has this certainty before God is able to say before God “Here I am. Send me!” More over only when this is true will God say “Go and tell this people!” (Isaiah 6:5-9)

The Apostle Peter was given much, to him alone was given revelation by the Father that Jesus was the Christ, The Son of the Living God, yet he denied Christ three times in a single night. The bitterness of his tears when he heard the cock crow speaks of the whole body being drawn into travail; it is a shaking of the shoulders, but the knowledge of the Lords words “when you return” uplifted him and turned him back without fear of men. Before this Peter boasted that he would give his life for the Lord. I’m sure he really meant it. What he couldn’t have realised was the inclination to self preservation when the risk to his life came. Afterwards Peter no doubt understood the deep reality of bitterness of the soul in light of Christ’s words to him.

The first (Isaiah) is wretchedness of the soul and the second (Peter) is bitterness of the soul. Both produce a good outcome. The one is God’s choosing the other is turning back. The one is the sin nature exposed by God (Woe is me); the other is the outworking of sin, by the will of the soul in an act of self preservation, to bear false witness. (I do not know Him).

Did Augustine change his mind about his early writing? I have no knowledge of it. But I can believe that God was able to do it. In hope I believe it. Turning back to the beginning of this post placing Augustine in the context of his day makes more sense than to try and judge him outright by his writings alone. Although I have said some things here which may well seem arrogant to some brethren I am certain that saying what you really believe to be true, even though to say so is to put yourself up for judgement, is better than completely rejecting something which may be beneficial both to working out ones own calling, as well as seeking to reveal something which attends to understanding the day we live in.

One thing which I am certain about is that the end of this age is already upon us, though its outworking in visibility is not yet seen. Whilst meditating on this answer to your questions Gary I was led to read 1 Thessalonians chapter five. Of all Paul’s letters this one deals more fully with the Lord’s return than any other letter. In thinking of the time in which we live and the growing emphasis on the end of the age, we have to remember that the balance, indeed the foundation for understanding the end of the age is not principally an understanding of the coming of the Man of Sin, but it is rather the hidden nature of the Lord’s return, proceeding the visibility of the Man of Sin. Only at the moment of his judgement and the judgement of the false prophet, will all men see Him coming as the veil of the cloud is removed.

In reading chapter five of 1 Thessalonians we get a clear exhortation by the Apostle of that Church, as to the substance of the confidence he had, namely that the Thessalonians were themselves walking as children of light. In this letter The Lord is described as coming as a thief in the night. Yet the Thessalonians were not only children of light but were also walking as children of light. It is therefore easy to understand why Paul is confident in them. It also reveals something of the nature of the Lord’s return, which in the first instance is not seen except by those who are awake, walking in the light. To everyone else Jesus is unseen as He takes that which is his possession, as though He were a thief coming in the night so as not to be seen. This is of course only “as a thief” in the night and not "a thief" in the night. We are all His righteous possession so we should expect to be taken by Him. Yet if we sleep and do not walk in the light as He is in the light, we will find that walking in the darkness of this hour in which we live, will prove to result in being left behind. Later Paul revisits this theme in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 because some were disturbing the faith of the Thessalonians by reporting that the Lord had already returned in the hidden way described in 1 Thessalonians chapter five. Clearly if there were no substance to the claim that it may be possible to be left behind at the Lord’s return no one could have been disturbed at all. It is also significant to us today to recognise the same test or criteria which will mark or else prove that hour of the Lord’s return in the clouds before He is become visible to all men.

Augustine as with many of the early Catholic Fathers was not set on a course of Apostolic unity of faith, he was building something which is at once a mystery and first reveales itself in Cain outside of the Garden of Eden, but which was also visible as a political city in the day of John as seen in Revelations, yet still had to be connected both as a mystery and as a city. Only in this connection do we see the rise of The Mother of Harlots. The mystery is mystery Babylon, the city is Babylon the Great. What this city was called in that day or else in this day is in truth of no consequence. It is the unity of purpose in the working of Satan which needs to be discerned if we are to hold our confidence in the Lord. If we do not discern the times in which we live, we will be shaken and disturbed today as were the Thessalonians at risk of being disturbed in their day. 1 Thessalonians chapter five is a wonderful passage of Scripture because in it is expressed an apostolic hope and confidence in Christ working in us to bring us safely to Himself in the clouds as well as demonstrating what the true apostolic heart is; confidence in Christ and a willingness to serve and warn according to sound doctrine and truth, with love.

 2012/9/4 6:22
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

bless you andrew ,,your confadence in the lords return in the maner in which you expect, in the contex of a rapture,,leaves me in a state to surely concider things i was not concidering ,,,your words seem to me to come from nights of prayer and fastings ,,i will need to read this over again

thanks for answering about augustine my knowlage about him,is limited i know more about people who know more about men like calvin and luther ,and calvin and luther new about and thought highly of augustine

so for me it was satisfing to here what you think about him , being that you know morethen a fair bit about him

bless you andrew ,i feel some times i would like to copy what you have writting here in sermon index and put in in a book ,,,,have you by the grace of god ever concidred writing a book

 2012/9/4 7:18Profile
Stevey_P
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Joined: 2012/9/2
Posts: 4


 Re:

Hi brother Paul! And thank you for the very warm welcome. I'm fascinated by the discussions and find the whole atmosphere very encouraging. In 2008 I completed a degree in Philosophy and Biblical Studies and the atmosphere and attitude with which many debates were held there left me with a bitter after-taste for these sorts of discussions. But it's wonderful to see so many people coming together here to earnestly, honestly and lovingly seek out the truth together in open discussion.

I look forward to reading more!

Blessings

Steve.

 2012/9/4 14:49Profile
Stevey_P
Member



Joined: 2012/9/2
Posts: 4


 Re:

Nice to meet you twayneb! Thanks for your response! Yes, the whole subject of whether we are intrinsically of an evil or godly nature is one big web of complexity tangled together over centuries of men and women much smarter than me trying to figure it out! My reference point is a) myself and b) Scripture. Myself: I see that inside of me there is a war of some kind as two opposing sides try to take hold of my heart. Scripture: this same struggle is described by Paul in Romans 7, the solution of which lies at the end (thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord - it was on hearing my mum read that very verse that I became a Christian) and start of Romans 8 (now there is no condemnation for one who is in Christ).

That which was bad once dominated me and I was a slave to one reality (or nature?), but now I have a new obligation to the Spirit, to live according to it as a 'slave of righteousness' (Romans 6:18). What was produced naturally in me as a result of sin has now been put to death, and what is now produced naturally in me is the result of the Spirit, which gives life (John 6:63).

So... was I intrinsically bad? Am I now intrinsically good? I guess it's not as simple as all that. I'm all ears to hear anyone's thoughts! And I suppose I need some convincing of the relevance of seeking an answer, which I'm open to as well.

Thanks for your reflections twayneb!

God bless.

Steve.

 2012/9/4 15:03Profile
Stevey_P
Member



Joined: 2012/9/2
Posts: 4


 Re: to hold any one guilty of sin for not doing what he could not do, belongs to the

Dear Proudpapa! On my first post on this forum I've already managed to embarrass myself by managing to confuse you with amrkelly who is actually the one who directed me to this thread! So I apologise for any confusion caused, it's all been cleared up now!

Thanks for starting what has turned out to be a very interesting thread!

God bless you.

Steve.

 2012/9/4 15:08Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2003
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Steve: I personally think the idea of intrinsically good or bad just might be asking the wrong question. It seems to me that Paul, in Romans 7, does not speak of a duality of natures, i.e., intrinsic goodness or badness, but rather the futility of trying to be good or righteous in ones own flesh or carnal efforts. In chapter 6 he deals with the death of our flesh and our subsequent life through Christ. In chapter 7 it seems pretty clear to me anyway that he is dealing with his utter despair at trying to be righteous in the eyes of God by keeping the law through his own efforts. The solution was found in the atoning work of Christ. Now, Romans 8, we no longer walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I believe that man was born in sin (original sin). I believe that the law was given to bring man, through the futility of self effort, to the realization of the need for a savior and a basis of righteousness other than man's own efforts. I believe, from John 3 and other passages, that man's spirit is regenerated at the rebirth, and not man's soul (mind and emotions) or man's body.

If that is the case, then as a man I used to walk after my flesh. I was unregenerate and under bondage to the law of sin that was in my members. I was a sinner, and so I sinned. I was spiritually dead to God. But now I am born again. My spirit is alive unto God. However, I still battle a flesh (body and soul) that is not born again. It does not mean that I am intrinsically anything in my opinion. I am a man made righteous by the blood of the lamb. My spirit has been born again and is just as righteous as it will be in all of eternity. But my salvation is only 1/3 accomplished so to speak. My body groans for the time when it will also put on immortality and the battle with unregenerate flesh will be over forever.

So the war, I believe, is not a "white dog / black dog" battle between natures that some have painted it to be. I am not a bi-polar believer. But I battle the flesh, and will to the end.

So, as you can see, the question of man being intrinsically good or bad is, to me anyway, asking a question that does not need to be asked.


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Travis

 2012/9/4 18:12Profile
Zionshield
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Joined: 2007/2/13
Posts: 135
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 Re:

Romans 9:13-24 speaks to this. "And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath ready for destruction."

Although we are born into sin we are still culpable because we also choose to sin.


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Randy Lambert

 2012/9/4 22:59Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: """Although we are born into sin we are still culpable because we also choose to sin. """

This is true.

But, Now that we are born again of the Spirit of Christ in us, we are His. Romans 8:9-13 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

The real me is Christ in me, by His Spirit I now live in the flesh, Quickened, not to be in debt to sin, that this mortal body is not to live after the flesh, but by the Spirit of Christ that is in me, I can mortify the undesirable deeds of this body of flesh. Which is a war and the more I have faith to believe as Paul did, I can say as he did, "it is no longer"; Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

By the Spirit of Christ that lives in me I can now live by the Faith of the Son of God. Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Since we are His, His workmanship, by His Spirit that lives in us, whose were we before we were born again by the incorruptable Seed of Christ? WE were satan's by his spirit that lived in us birthed into sin, all this before the Cross, now the spirit of satan is out and the Spirit of Christ is in, regenerated, rebirthed into the righteousness of Christ that dwells in us.

What is God most concerned with? That I renew my soul/mind to the mind of Christ by His faith and the power of His resurrection by the Holy Spirit, the single most important thing God has done for the believer, which is "Christ in you the hope of Glory", being apprehended by Christ, we are to follow Christ as Paul did, that we might apprehend Christ. Philippians 3:12-15 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

How can anyone be perfect except it be Jesus Christ the Son of God? But! we are perfect by the Christ that is in us, His Spirit, we are becoming perfect in soul/mind and are to be thus minded, not otherwise minded, "be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect". God will reveal even this unto us. Even our flesh and bones will be perfect on resurrection day. For now, WE FIGHT, We FIGHT. (Red Tails) Knowing who we are in Christ Jesus by Faith. Sons of the Living God.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2012/9/5 4:37Profile





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