hi stevyp,, nice to read your last post ,resonates much with my heart brother you said you persue an inward purity ,and i see by your post a verry high standered , god blees you in your goal have you acheieved it ,and are you talking about absalut sinless perfection ,,blessings ,
I honestly have never studied the writings of Augustine and have only a cursory knowledge of some of the teachings and writings of the early church fathers. One only has so many hours in a day and a lot of commitments. So, I spend most of my time purely in the Word. I am not one that is much for studying various theological perspectives. twayneb.
a question ,,do you think that agustine was ever bornagain and im not sure if you answerd this question ,,,,do you think he changed his mind about his early teachings Brother Gary.
bless you andrew ,,your confadence in the lords return in the maner in which you expect, in the contex of a rapture,,leaves me in a state to surely concider things i was not concidering ,,,your words seem to me to come from nights of prayer and fastings ,,i will need to read this over again thanks for answering about augustine my knowlage about him,is limited i know more about people who know more about men like calvin and luther ,and calvin and luther new about and thought highly of augustine so for me it was satisfing to here what you think about him , being that you know morethen a fair bit about him bless you andrew ,i feel some times i would like to copy what you have writting here in sermon index and put in in a book ,,,,have you by the grace of god ever concidred writing a book
Hi brother Paul! And thank you for the very warm welcome. I'm fascinated by the discussions and find the whole atmosphere very encouraging. In 2008 I completed a degree in Philosophy and Biblical Studies and the atmosphere and attitude with which many debates were held there left me with a bitter after-taste for these sorts of discussions. But it's wonderful to see so many people coming together here to earnestly, honestly and lovingly seek out the truth together in open discussion.I look forward to reading more!BlessingsSteve.
Nice to meet you twayneb! Thanks for your response! Yes, the whole subject of whether we are intrinsically of an evil or godly nature is one big web of complexity tangled together over centuries of men and women much smarter than me trying to figure it out! My reference point is a) myself and b) Scripture. Myself: I see that inside of me there is a war of some kind as two opposing sides try to take hold of my heart. Scripture: this same struggle is described by Paul in Romans 7, the solution of which lies at the end (thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord - it was on hearing my mum read that very verse that I became a Christian) and start of Romans 8 (now there is no condemnation for one who is in Christ).That which was bad once dominated me and I was a slave to one reality (or nature?), but now I have a new obligation to the Spirit, to live according to it as a 'slave of righteousness' (Romans 6:18). What was produced naturally in me as a result of sin has now been put to death, and what is now produced naturally in me is the result of the Spirit, which gives life (John 6:63).So... was I intrinsically bad? Am I now intrinsically good? I guess it's not as simple as all that. I'm all ears to hear anyone's thoughts! And I suppose I need some convincing of the relevance of seeking an answer, which I'm open to as well.Thanks for your reflections twayneb!God bless.Steve.
Dear Proudpapa! On my first post on this forum I've already managed to embarrass myself by managing to confuse you with amrkelly who is actually the one who directed me to this thread! So I apologise for any confusion caused, it's all been cleared up now!Thanks for starting what has turned out to be a very interesting thread!God bless you.Steve.
Steve: I personally think the idea of intrinsically good or bad just might be asking the wrong question. It seems to me that Paul, in Romans 7, does not speak of a duality of natures, i.e., intrinsic goodness or badness, but rather the futility of trying to be good or righteous in ones own flesh or carnal efforts. In chapter 6 he deals with the death of our flesh and our subsequent life through Christ. In chapter 7 it seems pretty clear to me anyway that he is dealing with his utter despair at trying to be righteous in the eyes of God by keeping the law through his own efforts. The solution was found in the atoning work of Christ. Now, Romans 8, we no longer walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit.I believe that man was born in sin (original sin). I believe that the law was given to bring man, through the futility of self effort, to the realization of the need for a savior and a basis of righteousness other than man's own efforts. I believe, from John 3 and other passages, that man's spirit is regenerated at the rebirth, and not man's soul (mind and emotions) or man's body. If that is the case, then as a man I used to walk after my flesh. I was unregenerate and under bondage to the law of sin that was in my members. I was a sinner, and so I sinned. I was spiritually dead to God. But now I am born again. My spirit is alive unto God. However, I still battle a flesh (body and soul) that is not born again. It does not mean that I am intrinsically anything in my opinion. I am a man made righteous by the blood of the lamb. My spirit has been born again and is just as righteous as it will be in all of eternity. But my salvation is only 1/3 accomplished so to speak. My body groans for the time when it will also put on immortality and the battle with unregenerate flesh will be over forever. So the war, I believe, is not a "white dog / black dog" battle between natures that some have painted it to be. I am not a bi-polar believer. But I battle the flesh, and will to the end. So, as you can see, the question of man being intrinsically good or bad is, to me anyway, asking a question that does not need to be asked.
Romans 9:13-24 speaks to this. "And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath ready for destruction."Although we are born into sin we are still culpable because we also choose to sin.
Quote: """Although we are born into sin we are still culpable because we also choose to sin. """This is true. But, Now that we are born again of the Spirit of Christ in us, we are His. Romans 8:9-13 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.The real me is Christ in me, by His Spirit I now live in the flesh, Quickened, not to be in debt to sin, that this mortal body is not to live after the flesh, but by the Spirit of Christ that is in me, I can mortify the undesirable deeds of this body of flesh. Which is a war and the more I have faith to believe as Paul did, I can say as he did, "it is no longer"; Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. By the Spirit of Christ that lives in me I can now live by the Faith of the Son of God. Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.Since we are His, His workmanship, by His Spirit that lives in us, whose were we before we were born again by the incorruptable Seed of Christ? WE were satan's by his spirit that lived in us birthed into sin, all this before the Cross, now the spirit of satan is out and the Spirit of Christ is in, regenerated, rebirthed into the righteousness of Christ that dwells in us.What is God most concerned with? That I renew my soul/mind to the mind of Christ by His faith and the power of His resurrection by the Holy Spirit, the single most important thing God has done for the believer, which is "Christ in you the hope of Glory", being apprehended by Christ, we are to follow Christ as Paul did, that we might apprehend Christ. Philippians 3:12-15 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.How can anyone be perfect except it be Jesus Christ the Son of God? But! we are perfect by the Christ that is in us, His Spirit, we are becoming perfect in soul/mind and are to be thus minded, not otherwise minded, "be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect". God will reveal even this unto us. Even our flesh and bones will be perfect on resurrection day. For now, WE FIGHT, We FIGHT. (Red Tails) Knowing who we are in Christ Jesus by Faith. Sons of the Living God.Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.In Christ: Phillip