SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Bill Nye 'The Science Guy' Hits Evolution Deniers

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5413
NC, USA

 Re:

Chris wrote:
"By His word, God could have made it so that light was able to instantly travel from stars many millions of light years away."

AND

"The age of the universe as determined by the measurement of the speed of light is one of the main reasons that many scientists give for believing in a very old universe. You can measure the speed of light by observation. It takes nearly five minutes for light from the sun to reach the Earth. It takes nearly 15 minutes for a broadcast from a rover on the planet Mars to reach the Earth (and vice versa). The Voyager probes launched in the 1970s are traveling at enormously high speeds and still have not yet breached the outer edge of the heliosphere of our own solar system.

Even at such a high speed, the Voyager spacecraft would not reach the nearest star for over a million years. So, the age of the universe appears to be much older than what we cite from Scriptures. Yet, like this professor pointed out, God is not confined to the speed of light or having to wait for light to reach Earth before creating life on it."
____________________________________

But if the universe is young (i.e. around 10,000 years old) then there CAN'T be any stars in existence over 10,000 light years away. Because, for example, if we are seeing a galaxy or star that is, say, 100,000 light years away, that means God had to have created it 100,000 years ago (for the light to reach us). But if He did, how can the universe be young?

So we either have to disregard all the science regarding atronomical distances (which would be pretty silly to do IMO), or accept the idea that there REALLY aren't stars way way out there-- we are just seeing a light that God placed in the sky to make us THINK there are stars and galaxies etc way way out there.

Here is a link to the article by Greg Koukl that explains this far better than I can:

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5639




_________________
Todd

 2012/8/28 14:21Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi TMK,

I'm not sure that you understood what I was saying.

In my post, I was attempting to point out that God is not confined to the "rules" of nature and physics. He is not confined by the speed of light. He is eternal and omnipotent.

At creation, God could have easily sent light from an object 50 Billion light years away to the Earth in an instant. In other words, the "mature" creation idea is that God was not bound by "scientific limitations," "observations" or "speed limits" when He created the universe. He could easily have created this world in an "as is" setting when He spoke it into existence and set it in motion.

I will also say that we are extremely limited in our understanding of the universe. Scientists are searching for answers regarding many of the mysteries of this universe. They are looking for something to explain "inconsistencies" to the "rules" of physics and relativity. For instance, there is "missing mass" in the known universe. So, they theorize about dark matter, parallel universes, gravity-breaking particles, invisible fields, white holes and exemptions to space-time. They are trying to measure the "bends" or "shortcuts" in space-time too to explain the differences in the direction of light.

Yet, all of these things may never be explained because of limits to science (or scientists). But, as people with relationship with God, we trust in the limitless of our Creator. If God wanted to create the Earth with light from extremely distant stars having arrived instantaneously, it was well within His power to do so.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/8/28 14:52Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5413
NC, USA

 Re:

From Greg Koukl's article:

"The counter from a young-earther is, No, wait, you don't understand. God actually created the light in transit. If God created everything in six days, then He had to create the star, too, because it does say He created the heavens and the earth. I'm thinking this is what they're going to hold.

So, He created the star and the earth and the light in between, which sounds fine if you're thinking of the star like a light bulb that is giving off a steady glow. But what we have in the galaxies are not just simply light bulbs giving off a steady glow, and you have this undifferentiated stream of glow flowing through the universe that God creates. Rather, what we have are light images of specific events in the universe, like super nova explosions, for example. So, if we see a super nova explosion that appears to be a billion light years away, this suggests, from my view, that it actually happened a billion years ago.

But a young-earther is going to have to say, No, that image is just something God created in transit. He just created it. It didn't really happen because there was no "billion years ago." Instead, the only thing that God actually created are all these little bits and pieces floating around in the universe that look like they were the result of that explosion that never happened.

You call that deception? That's my point. God doesn't do that, I suspect."


_________________
Todd

 2012/8/28 22:28Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi ccchhhrrriiisss, You have brought up many good points

RE: ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///In my post, I was attempting to point out that God is not confined to the "rules" of nature and physics. He is not confined by the speed of light. He is eternal and omnipotent.///

absolute agreement.

 2012/8/28 22:45Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi TMK,

I disagree with the underlying sentiment in this article, TMK. I think that such thinking potentially limits the realization of the creating power of God.

Yes, when we see a star, we are looking at light that has arrived from many "light years" away. A light year, of course, is the DISTANCE that is measured by how long it would take for light to travel in space.

Yes, a star can be millions of light years from Earth. To see that light under the normal laws of physics would suggest that those stars were there millions of years ago -- the time it took for that light to reach our eyes.

Yet, God did not explain to us what specific measures He took during Creation. We don't know if "sped up" light to reach Earth the instant that it was created. We don't know if God created this world in a way that light from distant stars arrived instantly during creation by the command or design of God. We don't know HOW it was done...because the Word of God simply explains THAT it was done. However, we know that God didn't "rest" until the seventh day of Creation and finalized the universe during that time.

I am simply saying that God is omnipotent. He wasn't confined to the laws of nature or physics when He created this universe. Those laws were designed by God but they do not constrain Him. If He so desired, the Lord could annihilate the sun but keep this world warm and filled with light. There is NOTHING that He cannot do now...and there was nothing that constrained Him during creation.

I hope that this makes sense.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/8/28 23:33Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5413
NC, USA

 Re:

Hi Chris-

Neither I (nor Greg Koukl) is suggesting that God could not have created the light from these far distant stars and galaxies already visible on the earth when He created the earth.

The question, rather is WOULD He have done this; is it in His character to this.. is it not deceptive to do this.

I am not questioning God's omnipotence; I am questioning whether He would do something to intentionally deceive us.

Using the super nova example again: If the universe is only 10,000 years old, and we see a super nova that APPEARS to be a million light years away, this SHOULD mean that a star exploded a million years ago. But it couldn't have been a million years ago because the universe is only 10,000 years old. So was there ever really a star there? Or did God create an already exploded star? (appearance of age).

The whole issue of "appearance of age" has nothing to do with God's ABILITY to create something with an appearance of age. But it has all to do with His character and whether He would actually do this.

Yes, God can do what He wants. But scientists use the rules HE set up when making their measurements of the universe, etc. Don't you think God knew when He created the universe that someday we would be exploring and trying to figure it out?

Creating Adam and Eve as adults or creating adult fruit bearing plants in the garden is totally different than creating them with "the appearance of age." Like I said initially, aging implies a process. Humans, as they age, show some signs of wear and tear. Trees have growth rings. I don't think that God put signs of wear and tear into Adam and Eve's bodies and I don't believe the trees had growth rings. If He did, that would have been deceptive and out of God's character. It is not that he was unable to do this from a POWER standpoint (of course He could have) but rather that he was unable to do this from a CHARACTER standpoint.

And, like I have said here on some other thread on this issue, accepting an ancient, billions of years old universe does NOTHING to help macroevolution. There STILL is not nearly enough time. I believe that is why many Christians are fearful about accepting the possibility that the universe really is really old-- because they fear this will then "allow" for macro-evolution. Nothing could be further from the truth.


_________________
Todd

 2012/8/29 7:42Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Christ wrote:I am simply saying that God is omnipotent. He wasn't confined to the laws of nature or physics when He created this universe. Those laws were designed by God but they do not constrain Him. If He so desired, the Lord could annihilate the sun but keep this world warm and filled with light. There is NOTHING that He cannot do now...and there was nothing that constrained Him during creation.

I hope that this makes sense.

______________

Thanks Chris for sharing these things here with us. I really appreciate you taking the time to share these things. I found it very interesting and helped me better understand some things as well.

God bless
mj

 2012/8/29 8:02Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 635


 Re:

Microevolution was touched earlier, questions:

1. is mutation and evolution the same. I am thinking that evolution is the process where lower forms of organisms (RNA, DNA, single celled organism) developed into multi-cellular or higher forms or complex forms of organisms (ex. homo sapiens).

2. is there an actual case where mutation resulted into a new species and not just another strain of the same species.

 2012/8/29 10:25Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi TMK,

Quote:

Neither I (nor Greg Koukl) is suggesting that God could not have created the light from these far distant stars and galaxies already visible on the earth when He created the earth.

The question, rather is WOULD He have done this; is it in His character to this.. is it not deceptive to do this.

I am not questioning God's omnipotence; I am questioning whether He would do something to intentionally deceive us.



First of all, I will point out that the days of Creation were very different than the "seventh day" when God rested (ceased) from His work. Thus, it can be argued that those laws of nature weren't established until God rested from His work in creating this universe.

I don't think that anyone should assume that it would be "deceptive" for God because He is not confined to the laws of science. He is the Author, the Designer, the Artist and the Engineer (so to speak). Yet, He was not (and still is not) confined to the laws of physics that He designed.

After all, He already "broke" the laws of physics by speaking this physical world into existence from NOTHING during the days of creation. This is a direct conflict with the Laws of Conservation of Mass and Conservation of Energy. There is nothing new except what God created.

Moreover, God continues to "break" the laws of physics (and nature) when He answers our prayers in miraculous ways. Thus, a true act that God (established in his infinite wisdom) cannot be described as deception because even defines what is right and wrong.

God doesn't operate on the same plane of understanding that we do. He isn't confined to "obey" laws....and this was especially true while He was in the process of creating the universe. I have always thought that the term "theology" was odd because mankind cannot fully understand the mind, thoughts or motives of God. Job learned this firsthand. There can be a real distraction in trying to "guess" God's thoughts, ways or motives -- especially when they are outside the realm of our ability to understand.

Quote:

Using the super nova example again: If the universe is only 10,000 years old, and we see a super nova that APPEARS to be a million light years away, this SHOULD mean that a star exploded a million years ago. But it couldn't have been a million years ago because the universe is only 10,000 years old. So was there ever really a star there? Or did God create an already exploded star? (appearance of age).

The whole issue of "appearance of age" has nothing to do with God's ABILITY to create something with an appearance of age. But it has all to do with His character and whether He would actually do this.



The issue that I have is with what you are saying about this. Yes, this is a clear yet simplified version of how we view stars and their relation with the age of the universe. When we see this supernova that we determine to be a million light years from Earth, a simple explanation is that we are looking at the past -- at the light that traveled from that supernova a million years ago and took that million years to reach our eyes on the Earth. Since we have measured the speed of light (at roughly 186,000 miles/second), we can determine the distance (1 light year = ~5.9 million miles).

Yet, this simplified view doesn't take into account a few things.

On a physical level, it doesn't take into account the path that the light takes from Point A (the supernova) and Point B (Earth). There are measured bends in the plane of space time (including bends caused by gravity itself) and scientists have long pondered the existence of what they call probable "shortcuts" in space time (light traveling through anything from blackholes, whiteholes, wormholes to mere warps in space time).

Moreover, physicists have long wondered about the speed of light and whether it can be surpassed. Einstein studied this but postulated that nothing with significant mass could accelerate and reach the speed of light. The resulting mass of that object would devastate the universe via a gravitational pull. However, he (and other physicists) still postulated what would happen IF something could accelerate to -- or surpass -- the speed of light. This is where theories of time travel come into play in regard to breaking the standards of space time.

In the discussion of this topic, it is relevant because we are talking about LIGHT. Light has no significant mass. Thus, many scientists have stated that the only thing that they can accelerate past the speed of light would be light itself. What would happen if light sped past the upper "speed limit" determined by relativity. This is when perception of light via "relativity of simultaneity" enters the debate but on a grand scale. So, even via the laws of physics, there is so much that we don't know especially in terms of how God "played by the rules" of physics during creation if he was so constrained.

The idea that I brought up was in regard to the nature of light and the unlimited opportunities of God.

Scientists have difficulty in explaining just what "light" is. We know how it behaves. We make guesses about what it is. Yet, since we can't contain, observe or photograph light (unless we actually approached its speed and observed the individual particles around us), we are left with an incomplete science.

In your supernova anecdote, I am simply stating that God could have easily "sped up" those particles during creation -- easily exceeding the current postulated upper speed limit -- before that "seventh day" when He rested from Creation. He could have sped them so much that He broke the plane of space time and our observations then become nothing more than a "perspective" that is relative from our time and place in space time. Thus, the light that we see from a million light years away (5.9 quadrillion miles) might not have taken a million years to arrive. We wouldn't be looking at the light from a million years ago, but from the time of Creation that God initially exceeded any "speed limits" that light was confined to from the seventh day of creation onward. In other words, we could currently observe light from thousands of years ago that actually traveled a million light years through space time.

We can't ignore the fact that God is not confined to those laws of physics. This is especially true of the time in which he was creating the physical universe. It is not a deception for God to act via His omnipotence and unlimited ways.

Quote:

Yes, God can do what He wants. But scientists use the rules HE set up when making their measurements of the universe, etc. Don't you think God knew when He created the universe that someday we would be exploring and trying to figure it out?



This is certainly a good point. God knows the end from the beginning. God is Spirit. He is Eternal...and already sits in the timelessness that He has allowed some men to glimpse. After all, John saw things that were to happen far in the future.

Yet, why would God allow for scientists to assume things that neglect the spiritual creation of the physical universe? I asked this question to the physics professor that I mentioned previously. He also thought that it was a good question. He pondered whether it could be that men would simply look for an answer apart from God. After all, the Word says that those who come to God must "believe that he is" (Hebrews 11:6).

So, there are "distractions" in this world via pleasure, sickness, happiness, pain, joy, hurt, wealth, poverty, ignorance and, yes, knowledge or science. After all, knowledge can "puff up" if we don't seek it in an effort to seek and please Him. Sometimes, we choose to believe what we cannot see even when it goes against our physical observations or own earthly understanding.

Quote:

Creating Adam and Eve as adults or creating adult fruit bearing plants in the garden is totally different than creating them with "the appearance of age." Like I said initially, aging implies a process. Humans, as they age, show some signs of wear and tear. Trees have growth rings. I don't think that God put signs of wear and tear into Adam and Eve's bodies and I don't believe the trees had growth rings. If He did, that would have been deceptive and out of God's character. It is not that he was unable to do this from a POWER standpoint (of course He could have) but rather that he was unable to do this from a CHARACTER standpoint.



To touch on the trees: How do you know? How do you know that those trees didn't have "growth rings?" What if God sped up the growth of those trees -- including the yearly growth rings -- when He created them? Did He just make them appear...or did He speed the rate of growth at Creation. How do you know that God didn't speed up creation rates when He created it? The same question can be asked light that He might have designed to reach Earth the moment that He created it.

This would not pose a problem with His character.
Quote:

And, like I have said here on some other thread on this issue, accepting an ancient, billions of years old universe does NOTHING to help macroevolution. There STILL is not nearly enough time. I believe that is why many Christians are fearful about accepting the possibility that the universe really is really old-- because they fear this will then "allow" for macro-evolution. Nothing could be further from the truth.


I agree. However, my rationale in regard to these things has nothing to do with perceived notions about macro-evolution. Evolutionary biologists, on the other hand, do disagree. They feel that the ancient age of the Earth theorized by physicists gives adequate time for the evolution of species. They can't, however, explain how they embrace evolution on a cellular level but fail to determine why plants with complex cellular structures didn't "evolve" on a macro-scale similar to animals. But, of course, that is another discussion altogether.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/8/29 13:59Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5413
NC, USA

 Re:

Hey Chris--

I appreciate your spirit in discussing this.

You wrote:

"In your supernova anecdote, I am simply stating that God could have easily "sped up" those particles during creation -- easily exceeding the current postulated upper speed limit -- before that "seventh day" when He rested from Creation. He could have sped them so much that He broke the plane of space time and our observations then become nothing more than a "perspective" that is relative from our time and place in space time."

Or, the universe really could be billions of years old ;)

I know we aren't going to agree on this-- this is one of those topics that most people don't change their minds on.

But I do find it interesting to discuss because I like to speculate about such things.

As far as the tree rings go, it is my understanding (i am no botanist) that rings form because of one year's cycle of photosynthesis followed by a period of dormancy, etc. Yes, God could have grown the plant from an acorn to a mature oak in one day, but did he also speed up the time so that many seasons passed in one day. You see, if there were tree rings in the adult trees in the garden, but there was no background cause (other than that God painted them there) it still seems deceptive to me.

But oh well, maybe that's just me!


_________________
Todd

 2012/8/29 14:51Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy