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Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


I just thought of another excellent example of speaking even when one is not experienced in what one is sharing.

I have been reading and responding a little on another thread here about modesty in dress on the part of women. Great thread by the way.

Within that thread different women have talked about how blessed they have been to read this or that book, audio, or otherwise most of whom were written by MEN!

Now if that is not a contradiction to the usual held belief that one should not speak into that which they have no experience with...I don't know what is.

Men speaking about the modesty of women.

MEN speaking about what women should or should not do about modesty!

These men are not...well...women. They have absolutely no experience being women. At all.

Yet here they are speaking about something that is applicable on the whole if not entirely to women.

Go figure.

But would any of us seriously and before God say that such is inappropriate? That men, godly men, can never speak into such with any kind of authority because they are...well...not women?

That would be a far stretch to say such a thing indeed.

I am not presently in church leadership but that should not detract from this whatsoever if what I am saying is of God.


 2012/8/22 17:00Profile

Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 107
Richmond, Va. USA


A simple way to see if you may perhaps be an authority on church leadership may be to go back through your posts and count how many times "I, me, my, or mine" is mentioned and put those in one column, and then in another column how many times the Lord Jesus Christ and His glory in His people is mentioned. That will give you your own answer on qualification on church leadership and who you want that leader to be.
May you be blessed.

R. Evan Gombach

 2012/8/22 21:57Profile

Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


I completely disagree with the implication that I want myself to be a leader or some such simply because I use the word "I" more often than mention the Lord Jesus or His glory.

Let's see I used the word "I" 4 times in that sentence.


So if I say...

The Lord Jesus disagrees with the implication that Carlos wants to be a leader or some such simply because he used the word "I" as often as he does.

Is that better?

Does that prove anything other than that the whole notion of determining one's heart by how many "I"'s are used is ridiculous?

I wonder how many time Paul referred to himself in some of his writings compared to how many times he referred to Jesus? Hmm...that would be an interesting study but I suspect that dear brother Paul was as guilty of selfish ambition by the standard you seem to be using as you imply that I am.

How exactly do I repent from any such thing? I mean if all my I's (there I go using I again) prove that I have selfish ambition and otherwise how exactly do I repent of that?

Start using we as the Pope does to refer to me and Jesus whenever I talk of I?


 2012/8/23 15:44Profile

Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


Sorry for how I responded to you in my last post SonsOfLevi.

I really do think your evaluation of me based on how often I use the word "I" is very superficial but I responded as I did because I am getting so sick and tired of the way Christians seem to step on me and the things that God has laid on my heart.

It seems like every time I rise up to start exercising whatever gift I have and to express what God lays on my heart...that the Christians start throwing cold water on me or otherwise stepping on me.

I took what you said in that light SonsOfLevi and I am sorry that I did.

I must learn to respond in love and not let such things get the best of me.

Following Christ is going to involve a lot of flak coming my way. The closer I get to Jesus the more flak I will receive.

That's just the way it is and I need to learn to respond with grace and love and not start attacking others through my words.

Please forgive me if in any way I came across as attacking you.


 2012/8/23 16:26Profile

Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


Out of a desire to get more engagement on the topic of church leadership and not so much dealing with me personally (though certainly that has to be taken into account) I would like to continue by sharing this...

Imagine if you will if I came up to any number of your average church goers and quoted the following verse to them..


Luke 2:8 (AKJV)

And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. And there were in the same country pastors abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

They would invariably tell me that I misquoted the bible for it wasn't Pastors who were watching the sheep at night but shepherds!

Yet would I really be misquoting the bible by rendering that verse in that way?

The underlying Greek word used in Luke 2:8, and which I rendered as "pastors" is the same word as that which underlies the English word "pastors" in Ephesians 4:11 where it says...


Ephesians 4:11 (AKJV)

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

The Greek word is poimēn

So it would be perfectly acceptable for me to use the word pastors instead of shepherds in Luke 2:8 for the word pastors is just another way of saying shepherds in English.

Now I grant you that substituting the English translation of a Greek word in one place for another at will is not always accurate as context does alter the meaning at times such that different English words may more accurately reflect the intended Greek meaning.

But in this case...I think such a substitution is perfectly acceptable and accurate to the underlying Greek.

For the word "pastors" in Ephesians 4:11 means nothing more or less than "shepherds" in the English.

There is nothing in the context that would justify translating this Greek word as shepherds in Luke 2:8 but as pastors in Ephesians 4:11.

The problem is that many of our English bible's decided to render poimēn as "pastors" in Ephesians 4:11 and as shepherds in Luke 2:8 for no real reason that I can see other than that the word "Pastor" had come to be associated with a professional class of church leader at the time of translation, which seemed to fit the context in Ephesians 4:11 more than "shepherd" did.

And so we ended up with our English bible's making a distinction between professional church leaders called Pastors and persons who tend to a flock of sheep in the field otherwise known as shepherds.

A distinction that is extra-biblical and that has robbed the church of what God intended respecting the perception of what a church leader is.

The irony is that this distinction is simply man-made since in truth there is NO biblical distinction between describing the work that church leaders do as shepherding the flock and describing the work of shepherds who shepherd a flock of sheep in the field as likewise shepherding the sheep.

By this man-made distinction and difference superimposed into our English bible's we have come to associate much more with the English word "Pastor" than is biblical.

A church leader is a shepherd of the flock.

An elder is simply a man who shepherds the flock.

Elder referring to his maturity and shepherd referring to what he does in his work as an elder.

I'll write more later but hopefully there will be some here who will engage me on the issue at hand so that I might be able to arrive at a more perfect understanding of what God's heart is on this.

I need constructive criticism, correction, or insight from anyone who might care to give it to me regarding the issue itself.



 2012/8/23 19:34Profile

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