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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
We know that Mary was a virgin but scripture tells us the reason for the virgin birth was to fulfill prophesy. It is not scripture, but is in fact, worldly, human wisdom and tradition that suggests that a further additional reason for the virgin birth was to avoid the 'transmission' of sin to Jesus.


Yes, Dan
I agree with your thinking here. The Roman Catholic church propogated the notion of transmission by procreation and then got themselves into an awful pickle. They had to find a way of not only eliminating Joseph (which is not a problem scripturally) but also of preventing Mary's sinful nature leaking to her child. They resolved it by deciding that Mary was sinless too. Their doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is the theory that Mary was free from sin. Like their doctrine of the bodily assumption of the BVM which is a consequence of this first error is likewise sheer speculation and without any biblical basis. Of course, if she was without Sin or sins she should still be around. Problem? Not at all, invent another doctrine where never dies but has her own personal rapture!

I question whether or not the scrpture teaches hereditary transmission at all. Death passed to all men at the moment of Adam's sin.

Robert's later comment that Adam's sin and its consequences made Christ's incarnation necessary is much easier to defend. If there had been no continuing consequence of Adam's sin, why should be come as the Last Adam? Why not the last Cain? or Balaam? or anyone?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/28 15:12Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Eli,

It would not be suffecient to say that "the Sin" that has entered the human race is merely influencing us to sin. It would be more of a 'severe oppression.'

1) Sinners walk according to the Prince of the Power of the Air and are by nature the children of wrath. Sin is as natural, for the unregenerate as righteousness is for the born again. Imagine the influence that the Holy Spirit has in the life of the believer and then ask yourself what it is like for a sinner to be 'filled' with the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

2) Sinners are all in Adam. Imagine the liberty that we have in Christ having been freed from sin- through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. We were slaves to sin. The written laws of God make manifest the truth of man's sinfulness through the exposure of the "law of sin" which is in our members. The laws of God expose the presence of "the Sin" that is governed by "the law of sin." The law of sin and the spirit that now work in the children of disobedience are in agreement. It is an unwritten code of rebellion against God. It is simple to understand. God says "don't" so we lust to "do" what God says "don't" do. this is the law of sin at work. It is a knee jerk reaction of the unregenerate. They are fulfilled by rebellion.

The temptation is from within. Sinners don't need Satan to go around tempting them to sin. They are tempted from within. Not an external 'voice' of the Serpent; but the internal voice of "the Sin" that is in our members. I would call it the flesh, but pedantically that is not correct and I have no real terms but biblical terms to use. So I will say again, the law of sin is yet in our members. It is what man is apart from the power of the Holy Spirit. It manifests itself when we cease to be full of the Holy Spirit. We must mortify the deeds of the flesh by the Holy Spirit. Sin is couching at the door of our hearts as sure as our lord is metaphorically knocking. It is in an attack position and the only one that can tame is the Holy Ghost.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/2/28 15:27Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Greg has just included a message from G W North on the site here called 'The Shipwreck'. G W North was called home a couple of years ago; 2 days after his 90th birthday. He will be an unknown factor to most on the site here. He was a controversial and uncompromising character of the mold and vintage of Leonard Ravenhill and Duncan Campbell. In appearance and sometimes in delivery he was very like T Austin Sparks; but with a steel fist under the velvet glove! But most of all he was himself.

Of all the streams that have poured into my life, and for all of which I am profoundly grateful, none have watered my soul as much as the life and ministry of this man. He was a frequent quest in our home and always a constant delight to be with.

I commend this message to you, especially in its relevance to this thread. You will find it here: The Shipwreck G W North


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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/1 4:06Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

In the course of my daily reading today I came to this...

Quote:
What prayer and supplication soever be made by any man, or by all thy people Israel, which shall know every man the plague of his own heart, and spread forth his hands toward this house:
(1Ki 8:38 KJV)



Wesley had a comment on the verse;
Quote:
1Ki 8:38 - The plague - His sin, which may be called the plague of his heart, in opposition to the other plagues here mentioned; so the sense is, who, by their afflictions are brought to a true and serious sense of their worse and inward plague of their sins, which are most fitly called the plague of the heart, because that is both the principal seat of sin, and the fountain from whence all actual sins flow.




_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/3/1 4:29Profile









 What constitutes a sinner?

From Sermons on Gospel Themes By Charles Finney- Lecture 20.

I. What constitutes a sinner?

1. A sinner is, essentially, a moral agent. So much he must be, whatever else he may or may not be. He must have free will, in the sense of being able to originate his own activities. He must be the responsible author of his own acts, in such a sense that he is not compelled irresistibly to act one way or another, otherwise than according to his own free choice.

He must also have intellect, so that he can understand his own relations and apprehend his moral responsibilities. An idiot, lacking this element of constitutional character, is not a moral agent and can not be a sinner.

He must also have sensibility, so that he can be moved to action -- so that there can be inducement to voluntary activity, and also a capacity to appropriate the motives for right or wrong action.

These are the essential elements of mind necessary to constitute a moral agent. Yet these are not all the facts which develop themselves in a sinner.

2. He is a selfish moral agent devoted to his own interests, making himself his own supreme end of action. He looks on his own things, not on the things of others. His own interests, not the interests of others, are his chief concern.

Thus every sinner is a moral agent, acting under this law of selfishness, having free will and all the powers of a moral agent, but making self the great end of all his action. This is a sinner.

3. We have here the true idea of sin. It is in an important sense, error. A sinner is one that "erreth." "He that converteth a sinner from the error of his ways." It is not a mere mistake, for mistakes are made through ignorance or incapacity. Nor is it a mere defect of constitution, attributable to its author. But it is an "error in his ways." It is missing the mark in his voluntary course of conduct. It is a voluntary divergence from the line of duty. It is not an innocent mistake, but a reckless yielding to impulse. It involves a wrong end -- a bad intention -- a being influenced by appetite or passion, in opposition to reason and conscience. It is an attempt to secure some present gratification at the expense of resisting convictions of duty. This is most emphatically missing the mark.

 2005/3/2 11:34
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: What constitutes a sinner?

freecd
Finney's Gospel Themes (including Chapter 20) are freely available already on various websites I really don't understand why you are doing this. Isn't the forum a place for discussion? To repeat it all here again is surely a waste of space?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/3/2 11:57Profile









 Sin is the voluntary transgression of law

The Bible defines sin as voluntary transgression of law, and it is absurd to think that a nature can be a voluntary transgression.

The Bible never represents God as condemning men for their nature, either here or at the judgment. Nowhere in the Bible is there the slightest hint that God holds men responsible for their nature, but only for the sickening, perverted and unyielding abuse of their nature. Other views of this use, differing from this, are not the Bible. Everywhere in the Bible men are condemned only for their voluntary sin, and are required to repent of sin. Indeed, there can possibly be no other sin than the sin of the wrong use of what we have.

 2005/3/2 13:58





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