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dann Member
Joined: 2005/2/16 Posts: 239 Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada
| Re: | | Quote:
Hulsey wrote: As a follow up question I would like to ask that if we are not conceived with a sinful nature then why did Jesus have to be born of a virgin?
Jesus was born of a virgin in order to satisfy the prophetic word.
The notion that Christ's virgin birth in some way allowed him to transcend the curse of Adam is not founded in scripture. If the curse of Adam could be avoided by artificially inseminating virgins - well, you would have quite a theological pie ;-)
Mary was a sinner like everyone else (she called Christ her Savior - and only a sinner needs a Savior). Mary was certainly a virgin - but that isn't to say that she wasn't as much a sinner as any other person! Her status as a virgin did not influence in any way whether Christ inherited the curse of Adam.
Like Adam, Christ's immediate physical ancestor was God himself. God created Adam's Spirit and furnished it with flesh to live in - God was Adam's 'Father'. Likewise, Christ, who was already eternally God, came to earth and received mortal flesh directly from God (as opposed to through procreation). Just as Romans five tells us - Christ was the 'second' Adam - which is why He wasn't under Adam's curse.
We know that Mary was a virgin but scripture tells us the reason for the virgin birth was to fulfill prophesy. It is not scripture, but is in fact, worldly, human wisdom and tradition that suggests that a further additional reason for the virgin birth was to avoid the 'transmission' of sin to Jesus.
If scripture doesn't teach this - how is it that so many people believe it? Ahhhh - tradition!
Apparently if something is believed for a long enough time, and by enough people, that makes it true! That is the reason why the Pharisees rejected Christ - Christ came along showing them that all their traditions were the commandments of men and not the teachings of God!
Likewise this idea that Mary's virginity equates to personal sinlessness in order that she might sinlessly give birth to Christ - just so that Christ didn't inherit sin from her - is not God's teaching, but man's.
For His glory,
Dan
_________________ Daniel van de Laar
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2005/2/28 11:39 | Profile |
Eli_Barnabas Member
Joined: 2005/2/16 Posts: 621 Cache Valley, Utah
| Re: | | The reason Jesus was sinless was because He was obedient. _________________ Eli Brayley
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2005/2/28 11:45 | Profile |
jeremyhulsey Member
Joined: 2003/4/18 Posts: 777
| Re: | | Hi dann,
I certainly wasn't trying to imply that he was sinnless because Mary was but that the sinful nature is inherited from the father, it gets more complicated than that I know but that's the jist of it.
Eli,
True Christ was obediant, but also was in a state that the original Adam was in before his fall. Not only was He--Jesus--sinless in actuallity, but also in nature and therefore accomplished in Himself what the first Adam had failed to do.
My other question to freecd was that if we are without a sinful nature and somehow one lives a life of perfect obedience to God does he personally then require the substituionary sacrifice of Jesus Christ for himself? If so why? Also, will he still die? _________________ Jeremy Hulsey
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2005/2/28 12:06 | Profile |
Eli_Barnabas Member
Joined: 2005/2/16 Posts: 621 Cache Valley, Utah
| Re: | | Quote:
True Christ was obediant, but also was in a state that the original Adam was in before his fall. Not only was He--Jesus--sinless in actuallity, but also in nature and therefore accomplished in Himself what the first Adam had failed to do.
Adam, in the that state, chose to sin. we, in that state choose to sin. Jesus, in that state, chose not to. Jesus was tempted the same as Adam, yet he was obedient. It was not because he had any advantage, but rather, true love for his Father. _________________ Eli Brayley
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2005/2/28 12:11 | Profile |
jeremyhulsey Member
Joined: 2003/4/18 Posts: 777
| Re: | | True Adam failed in that sinless state but we are not in that state. We are born with a desire toward rebellion. This is Something that, before his fall, Adam did not know. _________________ Jeremy Hulsey
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2005/2/28 12:23 | Profile |
RobertW Member
Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: | | Quote:
II. That if man were free from the corruption of sin from birth their had been no need for Christ to have been born of a Virgin
Please excuse my carelessness in defining my subject. More pedantically let me say; "That if man were free from the corruption of sin from birth there had been no need for the incarnation." Nonetheless, I suggest there is great merit in the necessity of a virgin birth which can be demonstrated throughout the Levitical laws as a Priest was not to marry one of harlotry.
They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane; neither shall they take a woman put away from her husband: for he is holy unto his God. (Leviticus 21:7)
My general retort to this is simple; "Shall our Great High Priest be born from a defiled womb when the priests of the Old Testament were not allowed to marry such women?" And if they were not allowed to marry based upon the above stipulations; what 'had' a women of such that would have been an affront on the priests holiness?
God Bless,
-Robert
_________________ Robert Wurtz II
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2005/2/28 12:24 | Profile |
Eli_Barnabas Member
Joined: 2005/2/16 Posts: 621 Cache Valley, Utah
| Re: | | Adam sinned in that state of 'not knowing sin'... He didn't eat the fruit THEN learn sin (in a way he did), but what I mean is the capability to sin was present even before he ate it. Otherwise he couldn't have eaten it. It is a matter of obedience, and it was the same with Jesus. _________________ Eli Brayley
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2005/2/28 12:34 | Profile |
dann Member
Joined: 2005/2/16 Posts: 239 Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada
| Re: | | Quote:
freecd wrote:My posts are not for you because I doubt there is any thing I could ever say to charge (change?) anything about you. There are others here who may find my posts helpful.
The purpose of godly instruction is mutual edification - not proselytism. I am confident that you are both sincere and confident that your own opinion is correct, and that every contrary opinion is flawed or otherwise wrong. Yet even if you are right in all that you believe and are teaching; by directing your teaching at only those who are not opposed to it, you inherit the glory and mantle of a teacher, without having to defend anything you are teaching!
Surely this is not your intention? _________________ Daniel van de Laar
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2005/2/28 12:37 | Profile |
RobertW Member
Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: | | If I might so add that both Adam before the fall and our Lord Jesus Christ was tempted by Satan from 'without'- we as sinners were tempted from within. We walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, etc. Now we walk in the Spirit.
God Bless,
-Robert _________________ Robert Wurtz II
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2005/2/28 13:31 | Profile |
Eli_Barnabas Member
Joined: 2005/2/16 Posts: 621 Cache Valley, Utah
| Re: | | Would you mind clarifying your point some more Robert? _________________ Eli Brayley
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2005/2/28 13:59 | Profile |