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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re: Responsibility for sin.

I think we would all agree on what you have said and what I have said is no contradiction to this. The problem with us in our sinful state does not mean we are not responsible to repent in concurrance with His assertion that we are sinners. The biblical position as I understand it drives the nail into the sinners coffin far deeper than for them to simply understand that they "have sinned." They must be made to know that they are sinners. It is not that they sinned and became a sinner. They are sinners and sinners sin. It is not Adam's fault or my parents fault that I sinned. It was through Adam that sin entered the human race. It is like a disease or a virus that Adam contracted (if I might so say). It came in and brought sickness and death with it. It manifests itself in the form of rebellion, etc.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/2/25 13:24Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Responsibility for sin.

Quote:
Sinners do not deserve any pity or sympathy at all! They are chosen criminals fighting against God. Would God punish sinners for something that really was not their own fault?


I have a lot of sympathy with what you say and my little rants about 'the will' are part of my usual protest, but it still does not answer my question; why did my dog die? Would God punish it for something that was really not its fault?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/25 14:46Profile









 Doggie Logic?

from THE NATURE OF SIN By Winkie Pratney

Many think they have explained the fact of sin in the human race by using a phrase we shall call "Doggie Logic." It goes essentially like this: "A dog is not a dog because he barks; he barks because he is a dog. Thus, man is not a sinner because he sins; he sins because he is a sinner." The assumption is, of course, that all sin flows from a pre-determined sinful nature, and it is this nature that creates sinful acts of the sinner. Just as the bark of a dog comes undeniably from the fact that he is a dog, so man's sin will flow inescapably from the fact that he is a sinner, and was born so. It sounds nice; is it true?

There are, unfortunately, two things wrong with this logic. They are serious flaws because, once they are assumed, they actually destroy the basis of the very thing they seek to prove - that all men are guilty of, and responsible to God for, their sin.

These logic flaws are:

(a) A Man is not a dog. A dog's actions are right if he barks because God created dogs to express themselves naturally by barking. But God did not create men to sin! A dog's bark is natural; sin is NOT. The Bible everywhere represents sin as an alien invasion to a moral nature made in the image of God. Assuming that man sins because it is his nature to sin, also assumes that sin is natural. A dog barks because he is a dog. A man can also bark if he chooses to. Does this prove that he is a dog? No, it proves that he has chosen to do a thing he was never created to do naturally. If a man sins, it merely proves that he has so chosen to sin; and his sin will certainly be treated as unnatural in the eyes of God.

(b) Do we need a sinful nature to sin? Is it necessary to have an "implanted sinfulness" to enable man to do wrong? If one sinner can be found in Scripture who sinned WITHOUT first having a sinful nature, the answer is no; and the case is closed. And of course, there are at least three moral beings who committed sin without sinful natures. Satan was the first. The first man Adam was the second, and his wife, Eve. The angels who were cast out of heaven were apparently before perfect. No moral being needs a sinful nature to sin; if he is given one that makes it impossible for him NOT to live right, he is not GUILTY.

 2005/2/26 7:35









 Re: THIRTEEN REASONS WHY THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN IS FALSE

Quote from ARE MEN BORN SINNERS? The Myth of Original Sin written by A. T. Overstreet. Page 101

THIRTEEN REASONS WHY THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN IS FALSE

The doctrine of original sin is false because:

1. It makes sin a misfortune and a calamity rather than a crime.

2. It makes the sinner deserve pity and compassion rather than blame for his sins.

3. It excuses the sinner.

4. It makes God responsible for sin.

5. It dishonors God. It makes him arbitrary, cruel, and unjust.

6. It causes ministers to wink at and excuse sin.

7. It begets complacency and a low standard of religion among Christians.

8. It is a stumbling-block to the unsaved.

9. It makes Jesus a sinner or it must deny his humanity.

10. It contradicts the Bible.

11. It "adds to" and "takes from" the Bible. God warns against this in Deut. 4:2 and Rev. 22:18, 19.

12. It begets false doctrines and false interpretations of the Scriptures.

13. It is ridiculous, absurd, and unreasonable. It contradicts the necessary and irresistible affirmations of every man's consciousness and reason, which is something that no true doctrine of the Word of God could do.

 2005/2/26 7:42
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Hi freecd,

So let's say a person is born and then manages to live a life without any actual sins. Is this person still in need of the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus Christ? If so then can you explain why?

edit: As a follow up question I would like to ask that if we are not conceived with a sinful nature then why did Jesus have to be born of a virgin?


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/2/26 9:36Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

freecd wrote:
Quote from ARE MEN BORN SINNERS? The Myth of Original Sin written by A. T. Overstreet. Page 101

THIRTEEN REASONS WHY THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN IS FALSE



Does any else consider it ironic, that 13 is the number of sin? :-P


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Aaron Ireland

 2005/2/26 9:53Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

13 reasons why “the13 reasons that the doctrine of original sin is false” is false!


The doctrine of original sin is false because:

1. It makes sin a misfortune and a calamity rather than a crime.
[b]Only to those who refuse to recognise the difference between constitutional sin as a nature, and acts of sins in transgression. [/b]

2. It makes the sinner deserve pity and compassion rather than blame for his sins.
[b]The sinner needs both. He does not need blame, he needs the conviction which will lead him to repentance. [/b]

3. It excuses the sinner.
[b]Not at all. It insists upon repentance relating to personal transgression, and looks to God for a total renewing of his nature. [/b]

4. It makes God responsible for sin.
[b]God takes responsibility for sin; that’s what Calvary is all about. But it does not make God responsible. [/b]

5. It dishonors God. It makes him arbitrary, cruel, and unjust.
[b]No it doesn’t. It is only those who misapply the truth in their own misconceptions who do this. [/b]

6. It causes ministers to wink at and excuse sin.
[b]Is this list ordered in increasing amounts of nonsense? If so and we are only at 6, we are in for some spectacular nonsense later on. [/b]

7. It begets complacency and a low standard of religion among Christians.
[b]Looks as though my thesis of 6 above is proving accurate. You mean like the low standards of Christians like John Wesley, George Whitfield, General Booth, Charles Spurgeon, Campbell Morgan, F B Meyer, Thomas Cook, Oswald Chambers, A W Tozer, Martin Lloyd Jones, Andrew Murray, George Muller, Murray M'Cheyne, the Bonar brothers, Francis Schaeffer? By all means lets avoid the low standards of such Christians! [/b]

8. It is a stumbling-block to the unsaved.
[b]It is a revelation given in the scripture to the saved. This truth is only unveiled in its full horror when its remedy has been provided. [/b]

9. It makes Jesus a sinner or it must deny his humanity.
[b]It shows why Jesus was able to be a Saviour, and no other man is. [/b]

10. It contradicts the Bible.
[b]Nonsense now up to 500 decibels and increasing! [/b]

11. It "adds to" and "takes from" the Bible. God warns against this in Deut. 4:2 and Rev. 22:18, 19.
[b]600 decibels and still rising[/b]


12. It begets false doctrines and false interpretations of the Scriptures.
[b]It shows the glorious salvation which God has obtained for us in Christ, and makes regeneration, and not reform an absolute necessity. [/b]

13. It is ridiculous, absurd, and unreasonable. It contradicts the necessary and irresistible affirmations of every man's consciousness and reason, which is something that no true doctrine of the Word of God could do.
[b]Nonsense measurements are now off the scale. Sparks and smoke seen emerging from the original writer of this document. [/b]


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/26 10:32Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

II. That if man were free from the corruption of sin from birth their had been no need for Christ to have been born of a Virgin; therefor righteousness could have come by the Law (this is Pelagianism).

Our Lord spent much of his ministry proving to men that they have not just sinned; they are sinners. In the time of Christ there was all of the Old Testament that would eventually be codified into 613 seperate laws (365 "don'ts" and 248 "do's".) Jesus tightened the screws down on the Old Testament so tight that everyone should have been wondering how anyone could live such a Law. He pointed to the heart and showed them that they were sinners from the heart. There was something desperately wrong with them that needed to be regenerated. They are under the wrong head (Adam) and the law of sin is in their "members." This word "members" is the same as is used to describe our "bodies".

At the expense of maybe being labeled a dualist I must submit, there is some kind of corruption in us that is even present in animals. They (animals) have no eternal soul- yet there is a serious flaw in their behavior that makes them violent compared to when Adam named them all. Our soul and spirit (as the born again) have been regenerated; but the creation has not. There is yet a mysterious connection between this corrupt creation and our bodies. Someday a child may lead a Tiger; but that day is not today. Someday we will be free from the influence of sin over our mortal bodies; but that day is not today.

The animal has a wildness to his nature that must be tamed. It is not a wildness of soul or spirit as we have- it is a physical problem. From whence cometh this nature that must be tamed? Was he created with it? Nay verily- the violent nature came when SIN entered- their venoms became toxic when God placed the earth in a state of inutility. This is a deadly combination. A violent creature with a means of carrying out this violence. Why? It was all caused by the fall. This is why our dog dies. The whole creation suffered as a result of what Adam did. He was the head and it all flowed down from there.

Yes, there was a time before Sin entered that all creation was in a perfect state of equilibrium. This is known as Symphonic Equilibrium. Everything worked like a perfectly tuned machine in perfect harmony and cooperation. Oh, what such a creation must have been like.

We have been through the initial process of regeneration that is part of the redemption of our souls and the rebirth of our spirit. We await for now, to whit, the redemption of our bodies. We are 2/3 of the way whole beloved. The body of this death yet lingers. If ye by the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the flesh you will live.

Oh for the day when death is swallowed up in victory! Oh death where is thy sting? There is no sting in death if I might be clothed upon with that glorious body redeemed from all the traces of Sin. In the resurrection we shall be like Him. Yet, whilst we remain we are transformed into His image from glory to glory. It is a progressive glorification that will finally reach that summit on that great resurrection morning. We will be perfect again through and through.

God Bless,

-Robert





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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/2/26 12:21Profile









 Re: WHAT SIN REALLY MUST BE

From THE NATURE OF SIN By Winkie Pratney

WHAT SIN REALLY MUST BE

1. Sin is UNIVERSAL - Nothing is clearer in Scripture or in daily life. World history is a chronicle of wickedness. Every man prior to conversion is a slave to his own selfishness. Every unsaved man knows that he is selfish. The Bible shows the unsaved to possess one common zoicked heart or character: Genesis 6:5; 1 Kings 11:9-11; 15:3; 2 Chronicles 12:14; Psalm 28:3; 66:18; 78:37; 95:10; Jeremiah 17:9-10; Ezekiel 14:2-3; 18:30-32; Ecclesiastes 9:3; Matthew 5:27-30; 9:4; 13:15; Mark 3:5; 7:18-23; 8:17; Luke 21:34; Acts 8:21 (18-24); Romans 2:4-6; 8:7; Hebrews 3:7-15. All men without God are totally selfish at heart; it is exceedingly humbling to admit that ALL a man's pre-conversion actions are not in the least virtuous when examined in Eternity's light. Man has nothing to commend him to God, when he comes asking for forgiveness.

The Bible further reveals that from the beginning of man's moral accountability, (seeing his spiritual responsibility to God and his fellow-men) man has made a choice to live supremely for himself, with no exceptions of true goodness, no pauses for really virtuous behavior, no alternative weeks of true unselfishness before God. Many factors influence the forms of this selfishness; there are many "good" clean-living, outwardly moral sinners, as well as those who are humanly despicable and degraded. Man chooses the particular form of selfishness that brings him the greatest pleasure; and this includes deeds and actions usually considered "good" by society, including prayer, religious activity, Bible study and preaching! But all sinners from those who have done "many wonderful works" to those God has had to "give up to vile affections" have one uniform morality - "there is NONE that doeth good, no, not one. " This universal persistency in sin is also shown in: Genesis 8:21; Psalm 10:4; 14:13 (53:1,3); 28:3; 94:11; Ecclesiastes 1:14; Isaiah 55:7-9; 64:6 Jeremiah 13:23; 17:9-10; Matthew 7:21-23; 12:34-35; Romans 1:21; 3:10-12; 3:23; 6:16-17; 6:20; Ephesians 2:1, 3; 5:8; Titus 1:15; 3:3; 1 Peter 2:25.

YOU AND YOUR ORIGINAL SIN

2. Sin is ORIGINAL -- There is nothing clearer in the Bible that man is VERY original in his sin! Sin is not a transmitted thing, it is created by each being with the elements of true morality - (emotions, reason, free will, moral light and spiritual perception of this).

Throughout the Bible, man's moral nature is shown to spring from his HEART. This "heart" is not your PHYSICAL heart that busily pumps life-giving blood to all the members of your body. It is an illustration of the SUPREME PREFERENCE, or ULTIMATE CHOICE of your will, just as the physical heart is the center and source of all physical life. The RULING CHOICE of your will is the center and source of all your actions, and is the one thing most entirely under your control. If God had made salvation dependent, say, on moving your body, or solving a problem, or even feeling a certain emotion, you may not have been able to do it. If you were paralyzed, your muscles might not be able to act. If you had little education, even on pain of death you could not solve a problem beyond your own reason. Even with a threat of everlasting torment, you would not be able to keep any emotion for long. But if God only asks for the choice of your will, all is brought within your reach. You can always give this "heart" to God. You can always CHOOSE so long as you have a rational mind and a moral nature. Every man born is faced with God's request to the awakening Adam - "My son, give Me your HEART" (Proverbs 23:6; 4: 23; 3:5).

When men choose wrong, following Adam's example, they become guilty of the second kind of depravity MORAL depravity. All sin is moral depravity - "missing the mark" in the ultimate choice of life. The Bible pointedly testifies of man's free choice in his life of sin, using a variety of words that show explicitly man's guilt and total moral depravity. No definition of man 's moral depravity that tends to remove personal and individual blame or responsibility from each sinner is a definition inspired by the Holy Spirit of God.

ALL the Bible words used for sin show that man is a REBEL, not a subject of pity who has lost his ability of will to do right.

Who can study the penetrating pictures of sin in the Scriptures and make sin something small! From the very least expression (to "err, stray from the mark or path planned for man") to the strongest term ("utter evil, wickedness of the mind and heart") all sin is WRONG CHOICE (Numbers 15:27; Ezekiel 3:18; 2 Kings 8:20,22; 1 Kings 8:47-50; 1 Chronicles 5:25; 1 Samuel 12:13-15; Joshua 22:16; Isaiah 66:3; Jeremiah 7:24; Romans 6:14-15; Hebrews 6:6; Galatians 6:1; Matthew 15:2; Acts 1:25; 1 Timothy 1:9; Romans 6:19; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 Peter 4: 18; Titus 2:12; Matthew 7:17,18; Hebrews 3:12).

From this study of Bible words describing sin, we look in vain for evidence that sin is anything else than a wrong choice. There is always the idea of movement, voluntary action, never a static or inactive something behind the will, received by heredity, that CAUSES the will to act in sin. The Word of God protects itself from theological speculation like this; sin is a CHOICE.

Without God, man does have a sinful nature, but this nature is NOT physical. He inherits no causation from his parents or anyone else. Man is responsible for his own actions. His sinful nature consists in the habit patterns of a life lived for self instead of God. They flow from a wrong HEART, or ultimate choice in life. They need not be all pre-meditated to be sin. A man who has unyielded rights and resentment in his heart that has been allowed to build for some time does not have to coldly calculate to fly into a rage. If a man says an unkind thing, then tries to cover it by saying, "Oh, I didn't mean that," the Scriptures flatly contradict him by stating "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." He may not have meant it to be revealed in all its ugliness. But it WAS in his heart, and the unconscious action followed. Nature does not mean natural, as compared to ordinary, but that which is common, that which man does AS A RULE. If we say man has a sinful nature, we are not talking about some solid "thing" causing sin; but that AS A RULE OF LIFE, the sinner always behaves sinfully. His own heart is set on pleasing himself; out of this choice flows all his thoughts, actions and choices.

Scripture reveals that NO sinner seeks God. His selfishness has made him run from the call of God just like Adam did long ago: Genesis 6:5: 2 Chronicles 12:14: Psalm 10:4; 53:2 119:115; Ecclesiastes 8:11; Isaiah 9:13; 31:1; 59:4; 64:7; 65:1; Matthew 23:37; John 5:40; 6:26; Romans 2:4; 3:11. For this reason, he cannot be saved unless God invests great efforts in him to turn him back to righteousness.

 2005/2/26 14:29
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

freecd
are you going to discuss these things or just load more of the same on the site? The nature of a forum is that it is place for discussion, not a rubbish dump.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/26 16:09Profile





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