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 Re:

HI Bearmaster. My post was not about despising His power or denying that miracles happen today. My post was based upon what I know to be a fascination of this particular movement in Britain. What we know is that the Word of God never changes. We can stand upon the Word of God, its our solid foundation. The Truth of the Gospel never changes. The authenticating work of the Spirit of God is manifested in an actual changed life and miracles follow after that. This has nothing to do with Jesus authenticating Himself through signs and wonders when He presented Himself to the Israelites and they rejected Him thus fulfilling prophecy.

Secondly, signs and wonders, unlike the Word of God can be and will be, according to the Word of God, used to fool people in the end times. So discernment is called for. Now discernment does not equate to despising God's power. I think many of us agree that the Lord's return is near? If that is actually so, then we must expect to see the counterfeit movement increase culminating in the great whore church. Part of this great deception will include lying signs and wonders. So, if a man's faith is based on signs and wonders, he will be particularly vulnerable to deception in those day.

Can I also add that no one did more miracles than Jesus. The crowds loved Him and followed Him everywhere. Yet Jesus, according to John 6, knew why they were following Him. So when He gave them the hard Truth, almost all of His " followers," fell away. Again in John 8 we see " believers," ultimately reject Jesus and even try and kill Him because of the Truth that He spoke to them. Brother, I would like you to read this passage of Scripture and see what the Lord says about this situation...........

Joh 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
Joh 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
Joh 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Now brother, the faith that comes from seeing miracles is not the saving faith of Jesus. It can be, some may be genuinly saved after experiencing or witnessing a miracle but I want you to compare that with the speech that Peter gave after Pentecost. 3000 were saved and Jesus did commit Himself to them. Where were all the crowds who wooed Jesus because of His miracles when He was being crucified? What about the crowd that welcomed Him in and lauded Him as King as He rode into the city on a donkey? What about the man who was healed at the pool but then informed on Jesus to the authorities? What about the lepers who were healed and only one came back to praise Jesus? No brother, the emphasis, and I think this is what this post is all about, the emphasis must be on Jesus Himself and the Gospel truth. No matter what one puts before Jesus, good or bad, unless Jesus Himself has the pre-emminance in everything then we are out of whack. The horse must go before the cart, the signs will follow the Scriptures say. This is simply the word of God that never changes.

You can imagine what it is going to look like when the Anti-Christ comes and is confirmed by the false prophet and all of that is confirmed with great signs and wonders and miracles. So my caution for discernment is not in any way a lack of faith or a despising of God's power, it is simply a caution for discernment. I love you bro.........bro Frank

 2012/8/20 11:57
richrock
Member



Joined: 2012/2/27
Posts: 93
UK

 Re:

In response to the OP, I had already done some looking around on the whole idea of Street Pastors, and was put off by what I saw, and heard from brothers and sisters who have gone through the training program...

I dug up this on my travels to find something of a statement of faith (there is none on their main website):

Quote:
"Street Pastors go out on Friday and Saturday nights. Teams of between four and six Street Pastors are out on the streets between 10pm and 2am on a Friday and 8pm to midnight on a Saturday visiting those areas where we know people will be. .

Once out on the street, Street Pastors interact with whoever they meet – exchanging a friendly word or getting into a deeper conversation. The Street Pastor is there to get to know people in the community and to build relationships in order to find out their needs and what can be done to help them.

Someone may want prayer because they are trapped in prostitution.

Someone may be given help to get home safely.

A person who is addicted to alcohol or drugs may be set on the road to recovery by a referral to Crossroads.

A person who is angry and aggressive may be calmed down by a combination of gentle talking through and resolving of their problems and silently offered prayer.

A homeless person may be given some food and a drink and we are grateful to Subway for the support that they give us with this.

The role of a Street Pastor is not about preaching, but is one of caring, listening and helping—working in an unconditional way sharing God’s love."



I'll be posting a general response on the rest of the OP after.

 2012/8/20 12:53Profile
richrock
Member



Joined: 2012/2/27
Posts: 93
UK

 Re:

Quote:
We in England are the home to the alpha course a course that has done more to damage evangelism than any other program as it stopped Christians from going on the street and it's false doctrine which does not talk about hell or repentance in the alpha course I know I have been through it.



There's problems with Alpha - it does not show a complete gospel. It's true they do not teach true biblical repentance, nor is it taught that we are inherently evil (Psa 51:5, Eph 2:3, Isa 48:8, Psa 58:3, Gen 8:21, John 3:6, Rom 7:18).

My other personal issues concern the emphasis on the gifts, even considering the fact that the Holy Spirit is given a weekend, yet the gospel is touched on in chapter three.

It's great to hear people working with homeless, giving food, bibles, etc, is very encouraging.

Quote:
The worst quote used is supposedly by st Francis of Assisi when preaching the gospel it is necessary use words, this is not a quote from st Francis.



I have heard this preached so many times, so much so that I believed it. Now I don't, and personally I am trying to re-educate myself, studying the word, looking at the examples of those who are doing God's will in these areas. Sadly, I have to resort to a street-preaching series on Youtube.

Quote:
We need to rely on the holy spirit as sometimes it is not right to preach.



I'm confused, aren't we to preach in season and out of season? I would love to hear what you mean in context...

Quote:
In some churches we have people who are hungry after the bible and not getting fed or it is so shallow as I have spoken to Muslims and atheists who know the bible better than most Christians.

Church losing its meaning without the gospel, prayer and study of the word
It breaks my heart with so many modern ideas such as street pastors movements.

God help us as I do not have the strength



Straight up! I will pray for your strength, deltadom. There is certainly a passion there for the gospel. We are not fed, echoing the words of Tozer (I think) - 'The sheep look up, and are not fed.' and yet, as Spurgeon would say on this topic, that the emphasis is on the entertainment of the goats.

In many ways I can echo the issues in the UK, I was going to join street pastors - what people told me they do, although commendable, did not get the gospel out there, even in tract form.

A great admonition, and surely one the church in the UK needs to hear.

 2012/8/20 13:26Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1806
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

There is so much I have to respond to as for doctrine it is important as much as the difference between a Jehovah's witness and a Christian,
What breaks my heart about these two movements specifically it is deceptive and people are specifically prohibited from speaking about there faith, some do.
What I find is people do not do is question the absolute obvious the courses and general meetings that happen against scripture,
One thing that I want to make obviously clear I believe in miracles and good works but simply if Christ does not get the glory or if you, but I do not believe in socialism or a social gospel as we become no better than mormans or most of the world who do good works to get into heaven or think they are. Why do churches spend time and money helping people on the street if they die in a car crash next day and end up in torment for the rest of eternity. It is like putting a band aid or plaster on cancer.

1 cor 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned , and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long , and is kind ; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself , is not puffed up , 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly , seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked , thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth : but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail ; whether there be tongues, they shall cease ; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away . 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come , then that which is in part shall be done away . 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly ; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known . 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Most people I speak to on when I am preaching the gospel have not done a biblical study on love nor have seen the quotes Jesus states about hell
As love rejoices in the truth and does not rejoice in iniquity, thinketh no evil.
These movements only offer temporary hope not everlasting hope.

Revelation 20:15 KJV
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mark 9:43 KJV
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off : it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 KJV
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched .
Mark 9:45 KJV
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off : it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 KJV
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched .
Mark 9:48 KJV
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched .

I am not doing a comprehensive study of how many times Jesus spoke about hell, these movements lack real love because real love would tell them the truth.
I know I am a sinner and a greater mess than most of you.
To me it breaks my heart with this movement. As it lacks the power of the gospel and the offence


Romans 1:16 KJV
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 15:19 KJV
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Romans 16:25 KJV
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began ,
1 Corinthians 9:12 KJV
If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
1 Corinthians 9:18 KJV
What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel , I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
/>
1 Thessalonians 1:5 KJV
For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
2 Timothy 1:8 KJV
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;


2 Corinthians 2:16 KJV
To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

As Christians we need Jesus and we have a powerless message without the gospel and one that is not grounded in biblical love
My heartache is that our churches are brimming full of program's that our not wrong in themselves but not scriptural.
It is wood, hay and stubble which will be burnt by gods consuming fire, works that our of no heavenly value.
One of my personal prayers as c s Lewis stated help me know the real Jesus and the real me as we are going to meet him and he is real. We better not have an imaginary thing we have made up from our imaginations but a biblical Jesus based in time and space and who lives now. The Jesus of biblical texts is who we worship and the thing he said about knowing are selves as the scriptures are a mirror on our soul that shows us what we are truly like as it is us and Jesus standing on judgement day.
This is what I hate about these movements a false facade and many others that are masked in Christian love but lack the love of scripture and more likely from hell.
As Denny Kensington put it the greatest deception is self deception, deliver us from that. As I know we all can be deceived in areas that our obvious and it is only the grace and truth of the lord Jesus that opens our eyes.
From a wretched sinner who needs a greater saviour




_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2012/8/20 13:49Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1806
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Richrock I have serious problems with alpha as said I am one who has gone through it, to me the churches in the uk are full of so called movements like this or fads that do not hold up to any type of scriptural scrutiny and taken for granted. It is also safe to say most books that people read or handed out are not questioned either


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2012/8/20 13:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The bible says that the devil will work incredible miracles....

This is misinformation. The devil is a liar and the only miracles that he can muster up is through "lying wonders".

Satan cannot heal the sick, he cannot heal a broken heart, he cannot because there is no life in him. He works behind religion, that is his disguise. He gives the illusion that God is bringing people together without the cross.

He will never produce a miracle that brings life or produces life, never.

In order for him to do that he would need the Holy Ghost.

 2012/8/20 16:14









 Re:

Quote:
What I find is people do not do is question the absolute obvious the courses and general meetings that happen against scripture,

I take it that you read hearts brother?

Only God knows who is searching and asking questions. We just don't know what is going on in peoples minds and what they are praying at their bedside.

Paul met up with a company of men while travelling in Asia Minor and he found out through their conversation that these types of believers were not followers of Christ but followers of Johns baptism. They had some sort of an understanding of the scriptures but they were desperately lacking in knowledge. Paul spoke to them of the One that John's ministry was all about, preparing the way of the Lord was his mission. Once they understood that it was Jesus Christ they were to believe in, they immediately dropped John and opted for Jesus and were baptized and received the Holy Ghost.

The way people come in sometimes can be a winding path until they come into contact with power and something ignites with themselves.

People that search, whether it's through the Alpha program or some other source, will find themselves in all kinds of different situations. When we are looking for something we'll look everywhere, not just the "safe" places that we have come to know. Most people don't know any better that is why they take these courses, they are just following everyone else because the knowledge that we have is not readily available to them, otherwise, they would hear what we'd have to say and therefore bypassing something that may or may not do them any good.

Even a little truth is better than nothing. And it's surprising to hear testimonies from people that started off with just hearing a verse of scriptures in a dead Church.

 2012/8/20 16:54
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1806
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 KJV
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

If you study the cults and other things, the devil can produce miracles in scripture. Walter Martin says other groups have miracles


Revelation 13:13 KJV
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

The bible states that the Antichrist will bring fire down from heaven. I believe in miracles but the greatest is a sinner turning to a saviour .
2 Timothy 3:8 KJV
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
In the scriptures jannee and jambres perform miracles in the exodus copying miracles Moses did.

There are examples in other religions, but our faith is based in the fact of the resurection.
Miracles are used to lead people to Jesus not like the prosperity preachers to themselves and profit, the biblical miracles give glory to Jesus and to his word. There is a vast chasm between demonic miracles and Christian miracles.

There are so many in the church who are chasing after miracles rather than Christ and the gospel. Even I am guilty. We live in an age of flashing lights, attention deficit disorder. With the healing on the streets movement the gospel should be Primary as his miracle of ressurection on the cross.

It seems we are drawn to anything in christiandom other than the power of gods word


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2012/8/20 16:56Profile









 Re:

Quote:
There are so many in the church who are chasing after miracles rather than Christ and the gospel

Nothing has changed since the time of Christ, they did it then, they are doing it today and why not?

I mean wouldn't you chase after a minstry who is doing miracles when we simply don't see anything like that today? I would! But my motives are different. I KNOW in whom I have believed, but at the same time, I would love to see a something spectacularly miraculous. I even would love to see someone get saved in a spectacular way. Everything seems to be hush hush. Even in my city, there are no miracles, nothing happens here. I see more people leaving Churches and finding home support groups instead and I am for all that, but it still a shame just the same.

 2012/8/20 17:17
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1806
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

I mean wouldn't you chase after a minstry who is doing miracles when we simply don't see anything like that today? I would! But my motives are different. I KNOW in whom I have believed, but at the same time, I would love to see a something spectacularly miraculous. I even would love to see someone get saved in a spectacular way. Everything seems to be hush hush. Even in my city, there are no miracles, nothing happens here. I see more people leaving Churches and finding home support groups instead and I am for all that, but it still a shame just the same.

People are looking everywhere but there prayer closet, one scholar recently documented miracles that are credible. What I mean is that everyone wants god to work in miracles yet they forget most men of the past spent time with god and did not have the distractions

One thing I disagree is on is that many people can find Truth through other sources as Jesus says I am the way, the truth and the life

John 4:24 KJV
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 14:17 KJV
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive , because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 15:26 KJV
But when the Comforter is come , whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
/>
John 16:13 KJV
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come , he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear , that shall he speak : and he will shew you things to come .
Ephesians 1:13 KJV
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed , ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 5:9 KJV
(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
2 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1 Peter 1:22 KJV
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

The church is called the pillar of truth, holy spirit is the spirit of truth, Jesus is the truth, it says that the truth shall set you free

What I mean is that people can come to Christ in dead cults and dead churches that preach half truths but always the other half is a lie.
Sometimes it is so dangerous as we have heard people say that they find truths other than in scripture. Then we lose them as the rabbi is better or some heretical teacher.
God can use every possible method to reach people this does not verify the cult such as Mormonism they are in as they have to turn to Jesus and the truth


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2012/8/20 17:32Profile





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