I remember when the Michael Salmon story was first posted on the forum. And the ruckus that was raised that this brother had gotten what he deserved. He violated the building codes of Phoenix AZ. Despite the attempts of some of us to show that this brother was picked out to be an example of what is coming. And that Bible studies are being banned in other communities. The consensus of some were let him go to jail. He violated building codes. By the way the brother is in jail for two months. The prosecution are pressing for the brother to serve an additional three or so years. All if this mind you over building code violations.

So Bear why bring this up again? You are kicking a dead horse. Dear saints to establish the pattern of an anti Christian hostility coming into America. Look at the Ken Miller trial. Do you not see what is happening? This was a Mennonite pastor who, out of compassion, heled a converted lesbian and her daughter find sanctuary. Evidently the former partner of the lesbian was abusing the daughter during visitation.. Now the pastor, if found guilty, could face imprisonment. Though we pray for justice to prevail. Given the hatred of Christian's in this country. He may be found guilty.

Saints its more than building codes. Whether Michael Salmon holding a Bible study on his property or Ken Miller helping a converted lesbian find sanctuary because of concerns for her daughter or Dan Cathy making a statement he supported Biblical marriage and taking flack for it, persecution us here.

That is why I say it is more than building codes. Some have been wondering if Greg is going overboard on the persecution theme. Saints Michael Salmon and Ken Miller are going to be the first of many to come. When Paul Washer weighs in and tells us persecution is coming we must
wake up.

The Sermon Index conference us sorely needed. It's message must go out. Your prayers are needed either in the prayer closet or on our Sunday night calls. We must pray for God to awaken ys at this critical hour.

Saints I used to cry out for revival. Yes, I wanted to see a movement of God's Spirit. But what God is telling his people is judgement is upon the land and we cannot stop it. Judgement via persecution is comi.g upon the church. The question is how will we respond to it? What will God gave us do?

It may be that revival will come in the midst of persecution. Thus gas happened in China and Iran. It may be in America a revival of hli
But saints, this is the hour to awaken and see persecution us here and it ain't gonna go away. The question. God what are you saying in these end times. For this was the question to the church in Revelation. He that gas an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. This is also the question to the church in America.

Again it js more than just building codes.

Posted by Bearmaster.

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Christiaan


“May you so live, that when you stand over your child's dead body, you may never hear a voice coming up from that clay, "Father, your negligence was my destruction! Mother, your prayerlessness was the instrument of my damnation!"

"Impress these words of Mine on your hearts and minds . . . Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up." Deuteronomy 11:18-19 - Charles Spurgeon

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SermonIndex.net Moderator - Brother Greg

Our Lord said 'For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat.' (Matthew 25:35). So as you help feed some of the poorest believers in the world in North Korea you are feeding Jesus Christ. And by giving Bibles to those believers who have no access to Scriptures you are equpping believers to be disciples of Jesus Christ to share the Good News with a lost world.

North Korean Christians Fund: https://www.heavensfamily.org/north-korea?goMotiv=I000-SEIN

Bibles for Believers Fund: https://www.heavensfamily.org/bibles-believers?goMotiv=I000-SEIN

I'm Very grateful for ministers like this ...

http://sermonindex2012.eventbrite.ca/

... that are on guard for The Church and bringing in a wake-up call that many shun or mock - yet the truth is out there and needs to get in here.

Thank you Greg, Bear, and all involved with this Divinely inspired coming Conference.

Just don't be surprised where you may see it advertised :)

The word of this conference needs to get out - just as equally as last years about "The fear of The LORD" being lacking in 'the church'.

Sweet Blessings to all that Love His Word!

Miccah, for heaven sakes. No one is claiming thus saith the Lord. People, including,myself, have posted into this forum believing America is under judgement. The church is under jydgement. You have the ikes of Art Katz, Denny Kenniston, David Wilkerson wo ghave been saying judgement us upon America. Even Billy Graham believes it.

Look at the at the economy on the brink of collapse. Look at the worst draught in U S history. Not seen since the 1930's. Look at the increase in violence. Look at the rise of blatant sexual sin. That is the Romans 1 judgement there. I could go on.

You don't need anyone to do a thus says the Lord to not discern the times and see that judgement us upon us. Those who spend time in prayer and watch sence that something will soon go down.

I am addressing the persecution aspect of this. Are we so arrogant to believe that saints in other parts of the world must suffer for tbeir faith. And American believers not suffer. I have posted two examples of brothers who presently sre suffeing for their allegiance to Chrrist. One is in jail. The other may soon be in jail. This is here in the U S. This will soon happen to other beiluevers who live Jesus.

I believe this is the urgency Greg sees to hold this conference. The question is. Do we see the Irgency of fhe hour?

Bearnaster.

I agree with Greg that a distinction has to be made between the land and the church. We know the land is under judgement because of sin. But judgement on the church will be persecution. Persecution will be that which purified and refines the church.

Tragically many intercessors I know are still trying to save America and its culture. They think Jesus died to save the culture and not sools. Though they would strongly deny such an accusation.

We need to pray that God will awaken a revived remnant out if the church. A remnant who will withstand the fires of persecution. These will be those who follow the Lamb where ever he goes. Even those who will do those great exploits for God. This will be the true church that will be favored in heaven and feared in hell.

Bearmaster.

Bearmaster stated

The Wake Up Report

Why Does God Permit Persecution?

May 2009

by Larry Wilson



Mr. Wilson:

I recently came across your website. Your article on the rapture is a challenge. I have been 100% convinced of a pre-tribulation rapture for more than twenty years, but in recent weeks my confidence in this doctrine is not as secure as it once was. Your article raised some good questions that I had not considered. One issue bothers me a great deal. Why does God permit His people to be persecuted and killed during the Great Tribulation? Didn’t God rescue Noah? Lot? Joseph? Rahab? Daniel and others? Doesn’t the Bible say that God’s people will not suffer wrath? (1 Thessalonians 1:10) I hope you will reply.

Sincerely,

Paul

Dear Paul:

Thank you for your question. I am pleased to learn that you are searching for more truth. I am sure the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth as you study God’s Word. (John 16:13) I am not here to tell anyone what to believe. You have asked a very good question that I have asked myself. I have found some points from Scripture that may be helpful to you in your own search for truth. Each believer must assemble God’s truth for himself and live according to what he believes is right and true. After you read this response, I hope you will go back to our website and reread the article on the rapture. If you do this, several pieces of the puzzle may "snap together" and make a lot more sense the second time around.

To begin, you need to know that persecution and true Christianity are inseparable. Jesus warned His disciples: "Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. . . . They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me." (John 15:20,21)

Later, Jesus warned His disciples again, "All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you. . . ." (John 16:1-4)

Looking into the future, the Bible warns that God’s saints are going to be persecuted: "The [leopard-like] beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. . . . He [the leopard-like beast] was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation." (Revelation 13:5-7, italics and insertion mine)

Those who stand up for righteousness are often persecuted. Jesus said, "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matthew 5:10-12) The apostle Peter understood persecution and the importance of not giving up. He wrote,"So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good [regardless of the consequences]." (1 Peter 4:19, insertion mine)

Please consider one more text: "He [the little horn] will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him [the little horn] for a time, times and half a time." (Daniel 7:25, italics and insertions mine) Who handed the saints over to the little horn power if not God? For reasons beyond the scope of this article, this prophecy was fulfilled during the Dark Ages. (A.D. 538 - 1798) During this time period, some historians calculate that more than fifty million Christians died for their faith. An unescapable fact is that in the past, God handed His saints over to the little horn for 1,260 years and it is not inconsistent that He should hand His saints over to the leopard-like beast for forty-two months in the future.

Look at Persecution from God’s Point of View

Persecution for Christ’s sake is a challenge, but God does not view persecution as we do. According to His infinite wisdom and love, God is able to achieve things for and through His saints when they are persecuted that He cannot achieve otherwise. Please consider the following:

Persecution for Christ’s sake purifies our devotion to Christ. When people are persecuted for humbly obeying the will of God, there is no room for bitterness or anger toward their predators. God’s people accept, through faith, that it is His will that they should stand firm, paying the price that His truth demands. (Remember that Jesus uttered the phrase "Father forgive them" on the cross (Luke 23:34), and Stephen uttered the same phrase when the stones were flying. Acts 7) When faced with persecution for Christ’s sake, a bundle of God’s grace is delivered. The Holy Spirit empowers the saint to deal with the situation. God’s Word becomes paramount and everyone involved is affected – even if they do not comprehend all that is taking place.

The fires of persecution separate the faith-full (the gold) from the faith-less (the dross). When the Great Tribulation begins, everyone who obeys the first angel’s message will face persecution. Our Creator’s demand to worship Him on the seventh day will stand in direct opposition to Babylon’s demand that we worship God on the first day. When persecution begins, many Christians will discover that they really do not have faith in Christ. They will cry out, "Oh God, how could You let this calamity happen to me?"

Peter’s experience is recorded in the Bible because he perfectly mirrors the difference between admission and submission. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter was bold, ready to die for his Lord. When the mob rushed into the garden to lay hands on Jesus, Peter whipped out his knife and a scuffle ensued. He managed to cut off the right ear of Malchus, the high priest’s servant. (John 18:10) Six hours later, he denied three times that he even knew Jesus. What caused Peter to do this?

Peter did not know it, but he had no faith in God. Peter had played the "admission game." He admitted that Jesus was the Messiah. (Matthew 16:16) Peter admitted that he was prepared to die for his master, ". . .‘Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you.’ And all the other disciples said the same." (Matthew 26:35) And sure enough, when the mob showed up, Peter proved that he was ready to fight and die for Christ’s sake, but his motive was self-defense. Peter was self-seeking and he was willing to die, if necessary, to get what he wanted.

Six hours later, Peter saw Jesus submit to persecution and condemnation without any self defense. Christ’s humility humiliated Peter. He felt betrayed and he responded with betrayal. Peter was not prepared to accept the Father’s will for Jesus. It was the Father’s will that Jesus go to the cross and Peter did not seek the same destiny as Christ. It is one thing to die in self defense or in defense of God and country, but it is altogether another matter to die for no other reason than God requires it. This is the element in Isaac’s story that is so amazing. He was willing to die on the altar without resistence or complaint. Jesus said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself [lay aside self-interests] and take up his cross [the will of God] and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it." (Matthew 16:24,25, insertions mine)

After the rooster crowed a third time, Peter had an epiphany. He began to understand the meaning of submission to the will of God. When Peter saw Israel’s Messiah, the Son of God, submitting to inhumane treatment because this was the Father’s will for Christ, Peter became ashamed of himself. Peter saw through his tears that faith in God means total submission to God’s will and this includes suffering because of righteousness. Jesus’ persecution changed Peter and millions of people since who have studied the life of Jesus. Persecution purifies the soul of the persecuted and in this process, God allows us to see if self has been set aside so that the will of God can be fulfilled. Jesus said, "This third I will bring into the fire [of persecution]; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’ " (Zechariah 13:9, insertion mine)

Persecution also keeps faith in Christ vibrant! When Jesus spoke to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3, the Christian faith was only sixty-five years old. Already, six of the seven churches in Asia Minor were corrupted by false doctrines, but the church at Philadelphia was hanging on. Because religion mutates quickly, God allowed the devil to chase His people into the desert for 1,260 years. (Revelation 12:6,14) God knows the desert is a good place for training people. This is why He took Israel into the desert when they first came out of Egypt. I like to call God’s desert training, "Desert University." When a person is exiled to the desert, he has to depend upon God for everything. The desert is an unforgiving place, a hostile place, a lonely place, a place that forbids self-indulgence and self-reliance. The carnal nature hates the desert. Instead, it wants pleasure, luxury, and the "easy life." Even though there is very little pleasure in the desert, a person can find joy in the desert. True joy expands the ability of the heart to trust God and serve man. True joy redirects our motives from self-seeking to selfless service. "Desert U" teaches discernment and insight. "Desert U" is a holistic experience called sanctification, or in Bible terms, "walking with God." "This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked [alone] with God." (Genesis 6:9, italics and insertion mine) Looking at human nature and knowing that God’s wisdom is perfect, we have to admit that putting the saints in the desert for 1,260 years had to be the best thing that God could do for them.

Attending "Desert U" is like putting on a blindfold and after taking hold of Christ’s arm, following wherever He leads. There is no way to know where you are going, but your destination is secure! God’s people often find themselves all alone in their faith experience. Family and friends rarely understand or appreciate "Desert U." In fact, family and friends are often opposed to God’s will because they do not know God’s will. Jesus said, "A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household." (Matthew 10:36) I have mentioned these matters because there is a special sense of joy at "Desert U." God is there. If necessary, food falls from the sky and water flows from rocks. "The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God . . . ." (Revelation 12:6, italics mine)

The final benefit that comes from persecution is exclusion. Persecution keeps those who love the world and the things of this world out of God’s church. (1 John 2:15) When the threshold for being a Christian is suffering, the nucleus of God’s people remains pure. When the threshold for being a Christian is easy, religion mutates and the gospel suffers. The saints become invalids when they should be soldiers of the cross. Instead of being medics to a dying world, church members constantly need a medic to keep them alive.

God’s saints do not serve Him because they want to avoid Hell and win Heaven. God’s saints would serve God even if there is nothing beyond this life. That is what Jesus did. He would have gone to the cross for you and me even if there was no resurrection. The saints serve God because He imparts love, peace, joy, and sustaining grace. (Galatians 5:22) This grace comes through total submission to God’s will. This grace enables the saints to "overcome the world." "They [the saints] overcame him [the devil] by [their faith in] the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death." (Revelation 12:11)

The apostle Paul wrote, "In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted." (2 Timothy 3:12) If persecution was a bad thing for God’s people, He would not permit it. God does not view persecution as we do because His grace is sufficient. Listen to Paul, a man who knew persecution well: "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." (1 Corinthians 10:13) God’s saints should not fret over past, present, or future persecution. If we surrender to God’s will today, He will give us every grace to glorify His wonderful name today. Today is all that we have. In closing, consider Peter’s words, the apostle who made an about face once he understood God’s will: "Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps." (1 Peter 2:12-21)

Larry Wilson

Soloman please check out the post by Zac Poohen entitled The Purpose of Difficulties and Trials. This is found in the Articles and Sermons section. I believe he expounds more effectively than I can in the purifying or perfecting of persecution.

Yes, it is the blood that purified us from sin. But there is a perfecting of our character in Christ that comes through persecution and suffering.

Bearmaster.

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A Just balance and scales belong to the Lord. All the weights of the bag are His concern