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SonsofLevi
Member



Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 107
Richmond, Va. USA

 Baptism of Fire

When a person has gone through the process of inward crucifixion in its entire length and breadth, the great spiritual result is the complete extinction of all selfishness and of all self-will: a result brought about by means of an entire and unchangeable consecration, attended by the inwardly operating and searching influences of the Holy Spirit; a result, which in the end is so minutely explorative, so thoroughly destructive of those inward influences which obstruct the presence of God in the soul, and withal so painful oftentimes, that it may well be termed the BAPTISM OF FIRE. It is by means of such a process of inward crucifixion, that the natural life dies; and the way is thus prepared for the true resurrection and life of Christ in the soul.

From "Principles of the Interior or Hidden Life" by T. C. Upham


_________________
R. Evan Gombach

 2012/8/10 0:15Profile









 Re: Baptism of Fire: Entire sanctification? Christian Perfection?

"The BAPTISM OF FIRE: It is by means of such a process of inward crucifixion, that the natural life dies; and the way is thus prepared for the true resurrection and life of Christ in the soul."..T. C. Upham

I consider this idea unscriptural, and a prideful myth; This idea that an event, or singular experience might propel some into an "ENTIRE AND UNCHANGEABLE CONSECRATION" as Upham's teaching above; CHRISTIAN perfection. It does not exist, nor can a singular example be found in scripture.

Paul founded the church at Rome. I'd say he was an authority to be contended with? This is what he taught about Christian Perfection, using his own failure as an example, as he often does.

"But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. "

This may have been the most mature Christian on Earth when he wrote this late in his ministry, and the authority on the Earth to the tune of his letters becoming Canon itself. Would not Paul have grasped this great truth? We can become perfect by receiving the Baptism of fire? Why then do we have to " Endure until the end, then?"

But a greater than Paul spoke up on this issue.

Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.


For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

Why would one ever have to lose his life, if one had attained perfection?"...and die daily to obey him, if he was killing the perfected and holy part of his soul. There would then be no Cross to bare, would there? Here-in lies the danger of this heresy.

I have become perfected in holiness by one experience, and I do not need to deny myself, do I? I have become a god unto myself.

"The complete extinction of all selfishness and of all self-will: a result brought about by means of an entire and unchangeable consecration...!"....Upham

Only one Man ever touched that here on Earth, the sinless Lamb of God, and our lot is to "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."

At that moment, the moment of a faithful saints death, Yes, we will enter into eternal perfection, but until then, we must follow the Lamb, die to our self, confess and forsake our sin, and sinfulness, as we enter into His Gates with praise, and that is everyday.

Below is a short testimony about the Nazarenes; a holiness people who believe in this idea of Christian perfection and the baptism of fire:

"Being a "holiness people," as Nazarenes refer to themselves, they believe Christians can be wholly sanctified after salvation. The church logo contains the dove and flame, symbolizing the complete sanctification process through the power of the Holy Spirit. Victory over sin and Christ-likeness are emphasized in the lives and mission of Nazarene believers.

When I asked Randy [ a former leader there] about this controversial doctrine of entire sanctification, he said, "In speaking with numerous Church of the Nazarene congregants and even some pastors, the doctrine confuses many of them, to the point that some have difficulty explaining it in simple terms."

John Wesley wrote, "Entire sanctification, or Christian perfection, is neither more nor less than pure love; love expelling sin, and governing both the heart and life of a child of God. The Refiner's fire purges out all that is contrary to love ..."

From article by Maryfairchild.
http://christianity.about.com/b/2010/09/03/church-of-the-nazarene-shaped-by-the-holiness-movement.htm

Of course, Wesley admittedly never attained what he believed, but I concede; it is a great idea but poorly constructed according to the rivers of truth in the Word of God that point to the Redeemed being Redeemed by one event; The Crucifixion and the shed Blood of the Lamb of God , and the Resurrection of the dead.

Upon this event, death, and to those who are graced upon to be there at His return; the Ruptured, we all shall attain perfection, as we take our seat in order, at the Marriage supper of the land.....and even the elders cast their crowns as to humble themselves as to WHO is the worthy one. Even the true perfected ones then admit in this act that they never attained anything, but receive grace instead as a sinner on Earth forgiven.

” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."[ to the imperfect; just like you and me.]

 2012/8/10 10:03
davidkeel
Member



Joined: 2006/5/11
Posts: 519
West Sussex, England

 Re:

BrotherTom said :
This is what he taught about Christian Perfection, using his own failure as an example, as he often does.

"But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

...................

I think Paul was speaking in the third person when he said those words. He was speaking hypothetically about the way his carnal mind desires to live. He couldn't have been saying he lives this way as he told others to live the opposite way to this.


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David Keel

 2012/8/10 15:42Profile









 The height of Holy communion and fellowship; only at the Marrige Supper.

"He couldn't have been saying he lives this way as he told others to live the opposite way to this."..davidkeel

He also said; " in somethings we all stumble"..and .."Who will deliver me from this body of death?"

Does it sound like someone who has attained perfection on Earth?...Don't think so.

So, in Galatians he also said this;

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
[satanic nature; fill in your name.]

For the flesh [ satanic nature; fill in your name.]
...lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh [ satanic nature; fill in your name.]

.............and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." ....mmmmmm; You cannot do the things you would? Would that imply that we actually have an evil Adam nature?

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

"But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me." ...Paul the Apostle.

This was not about how anyone LIVES; it is everything about who one IS! There is no cure for us on this Earth, except that Cross that we must bare to deny our wicked nature and slay it.

To believe that we can attain unto sinless perfection, is to imply that we can be exorcised from our sin nature; which is a fantasy. We crucify it daily, and struggle with it until the day we die, That is it's nature; to subdue you.

So, if you believe this, please show me one person who is perfect; I want to see him or her, and chat for a while. Surely it would be like fellow-shipping Jesus Himself; you know? sinless and perfect and all.

I am being cynical, sorry, but please reason this out with me, so you may see it's folly. Respectfully, Brothertom.





 2012/8/10 19:05
davidkeel
Member



Joined: 2006/5/11
Posts: 519
West Sussex, England

 Re: The height of Holy communion and fellowship; only at the Marrige Supper.

Hi Brothertom, I am just wondering if you have interpreted the original quotation correctly ? As I can see you are talking about sinless perfection a lot. But the quotation wasn't talking about sinless perfection. I thought it was talking about our self life dying and being put to death through what the writer calls a 'baptism of fire' ?

I don't believe in sinless perfection myself.
We are all fallible, that is obvious from scripture.
I do agree with the process of dying to self which is contained in the quote though.


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David Keel

 2012/8/10 19:28Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re: The height of Holy communion and fellowship; only at the Marrige Supper.

Quote:

"The BAPTISM OF FIRE: It is by means of such a process of inward crucifixion, that the natural life dies; and the way is thus prepared for the true resurrection and life of Christ in the soul."..T. C. Upham

I consider this idea unscriptural, and a prideful myth;



Why should crucifixion of self and Christlikeness be considered unscriptural?

Galatians 2-20:-
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

If the self of Paul was crucified with Christ and Christ was living in him through the Holy Spirit then Why can't any Christian have the same life? If anyone believes it is not possible then it is unbelief.

Why do people Quote only Romans 7 and not Romans 8? The same Paul who talked about his struggle with Sin in Romans 7 also wrote in Romans 8 in which he said 'For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.' Why not read that one as well. It is a shame that people want to read and quote only those that gives them comfort and ignore the truth.

Romans is a stepwise recording of a Christians Journey in Life. Romans 7 is a stage in which a Christian lives by Law, in a legalistic way. Even in Pilgrims progress this stage is covered. Every beliver goes through this phase where they have confidence in Flesh that they can keep all the laws. But then God breaks them to bring into Romans 8 where they start living according to Spirit, resulting in no Condemnation.

If Paul was stumbling each and everyday and Sinning like those who seek comfort in scripture by Quoting Romans 7 then how could he say to his Church - 'Follow me as I follow Christ'? (1 Corinthians 11:1). How could he say his Conscience is always clear before God? (1 Corinthians 4-4).



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Sreeram

 2012/8/10 22:55Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


  Brothertom

Hi Brothertom I want to offer another perspective on some of that you wrote.

RE: Brothertom wrote ///.."Who will deliver me from this body of death?"///

Paul in Chapter 7 gives the answer the conclusion to Romans 7 ///I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord///
That is who delivers from this body of death.

Again Romans 7 is clearly, unarguably a Man not living under grace but living under the Law! It is not Paul contridicting everything that he just taught in ch 6

RE: brothertom wrote ///Does it sound like someone who has attained perfection on Earth?...Don't think so.///

The first part of Romans is Pauls Letter combatting some Jews that are slanderously accusing the Gospel as being a gospel that taught people that it was Ok to continue in sin so that Grace might abound. In which he clearly replies God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Pauls entire argument in the Book of Romans is that the Gospel is supperior to the Law of Sin. The Gospel is able to achieve what striving to keep the Law is incapable of
doing. He says of the Law "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law"

This is Paul, remember what he said of His pre regenerated Pharassee Life ///touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.///

how can we imply that Paul whom says of the the law before his conversion that he was blameless (of course we no that was only outwardly and not inwardly it was a romans 7 man)
How can we say that he who is now in the middle of his argument of the superiorety of the Gospel is claiming that the failed life of romans 7 is his experience as a Christian.

Romans 7 is clearly a first person narrative of a past tense event

start at verse 9 "For I was alive without the law once"
He is saying once apoun a time (past tense) I was a live without the Law (Paul as an infant,innocent no guilt,no law thus no sin) But as Pauls grew in age and understanding he started to Hold an understanding of good and evil. Being brought up as a devout Jew He was taught the Law and the commandments but what he experienced is "the commandment came, sin revived", That is Sin Revived from his parents generation to his own thru being brought up in a world seperate from God and with Law "For as in Adam all die" This was the point that Paul lost innocence he died He became fully aware of his nakedness, He says at this point "and I died."

From this past tense intro he continues the rest of the narrative (Past Tense)(pre conversion)(the Bondage under the Law) The rest of the Chapter is clearly Past tense up untill verse 25 when He gives the conclusion and solution to His past tense narrative.

Re Brothertom writes ///.............and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." ....mmmmmm; You cannot do the things you would? Would that imply that we actually have an evil Adam nature?///

If It is an evil Adam nature that causes us to sin than why in the world did Adam and Eve created with a good nature ever choose to sin in the first place?? and how in the World was Jesus whom we all should agree was created with a perfect nature ever able to be tempted??

Re: Brothertom writes ///This was not about how anyone LIVES; it is everything about who one IS! There is no cure for us on this Earth, except that Cross that we must bare to deny our wicked nature and slay it.///

I want to offer another perspective. Does the Bible teach that we are to spend our lives at working at slaying our flesh Daily or rather put faith in the Gospel message that I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


RE: brothertom wrote ///To believe that we can attain unto sinless perfection, is to imply that we can be exorcised from our sin nature; which is a fantasy. We crucify it daily, and struggle with it until the day we die, That is it's nature; to subdue you.///

To believe that we can not have victory over sin is a sure way to stay in the bondage of sin ( I spent years in this defeat because of those Augustinian doctrines that are so strongly taught in our modern christian culture)

RE:///struggle with it until the day we die///

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? (((God forbid.)))

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

RE Brothertom writes ///So, if you believe this, please show me one person who is perfect; I want to see him or her, and chat for a while. Surely it would be like fellow-shipping Jesus Himself; you know? sinless and perfect and all.///

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall
It seems clear that we can never reach a point where we are incapable of sin.

But I will ask you this, Is there one sin that we have to committ?? name just one sin that God has not provided a way to escape??

Lets stop looking at ours and others circumstances and lets start believing the scripture on such issues and have our circumstances transformed.

RE:brothertom wrote /// I am being cynical, sorry, but please reason this out with me, so you may see it's folly. Respectfully, Brothertom///

Lets reason together friend





















 2012/8/11 1:41Profile
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Brother Tom has taken issue with the original sentiments. I feel a caution about wrangling over words and terms is in order. The original author said that by what he describes "the way is thus prepared for the true resurrection and life of Christ in the soul." Is he truly preaching Christian perfection? Would he literally agree with everything that Tom has claimed he is saying? We won't know, and I am not sure we need to. Paul said to look for wherever there was encouragement and love. I found some encouragement to continue seeking after Christ and his further sanctification in the original post. Do I have to agree with every letter of it? No. Can I find a fellow traveler on the way of Christ there and be encouraged by what he has found? Perhaps. Let those who do so, do so.

 2012/8/11 18:04Profile
davidkeel
Member



Joined: 2006/5/11
Posts: 519
West Sussex, England

 Re:


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David Keel

 2012/8/11 21:42Profile
davidkeel
Member



Joined: 2006/5/11
Posts: 519
West Sussex, England

 Re:

Hi all, brother Tom's original answer was more in line with the belief of the author who wrote the book from which the original quote came from. Maybe he had a bit of insight into that author. It's interesting though, I think that the teaching about there being a cleansing process before the baptism of the spirit was quite a common one in the point in history when the book was written.
Forgive me for waffling on. But I had an amazing experience. This story is just to add a bit of lightness to the conversation here and doesn't form any doctrine. But I experienced an amazing cleansing from sin when I was first saved. I believe it was the baptism of the spirit. It was so powerful that being a new Christian it really shocked me. It seemed like God had taken control of my mind and body . My life time of stammering stopped instantly and the holy spirit shook my body as he entered me. I remember trying to follow my normal routine of looking at girls but I felt like I was going to be sick on the bus if I persisted in that direction... The most amazing change was when the bus stopped near to where I lived and I spotted some old people talking on the kerb side. I had previously really disliked old people but this time amazing love over took my being for them. I began to cry for them and I couldn't stop it. My nose began to run and it was all pouring down onto my jumper. I believe in the baptism of the spirit, that it is a great cleanser. I also believe in the fact we can fall back and sin. And I believe in dying to self as I believe the original quote was referring to. I think Tom took a verbal battering which seems to happen quite often on here. We have to be careful when replying sometimes as it's not a war zone.


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David Keel

 2012/8/11 21:42Profile





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