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Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860


Okay so I know that the world is sinful and fallen but is it possible that so many people are that way or think the way they do because they are ignorant?

Had another discussion with another person who made statements like "Well the bible doesn't ever really say homosexuality is a sin"

I was almost certain this was something that was common knowledge?!? Has the worldview been so warped that people just accept the thought that "eh the bible doesnt say its bad?" Like it becomes okay if enough people say it is? or the loudest person says it is? I weep for the coming generation because seriously the lack of discernment and just ignorance of it.

I am far from sinless but when did wrong become right and right become wrong? Did that happen already?

Matthew Guldner

 2012/8/5 8:34Profile

 Re: Twisted?

When I think of the implications of this mindset, and your post, the words EXTREME GRACE pop up on my mental screen. Extreme grace is a lie from Hell, and most of it stems from the basic Once Saved Always Saved mantra.

Origin Of OSAS

"OSAS can easily be traced back to John Calvin (1509-1564) from the Synod of Dort under the description of the perseverance of the saints. But did you know that it, and other points of Calvinism, can be traced more than one thousand years earlier to Augustine of Hippo (354-430)?

This was the theme about which Augustine structured his thinking during the last half of his writing ministry. As he put it:

“Whatsoever persons are through the riches of divine grace exempted from the original sentence of condemnation are undoubtedly brought to hear the Gospel, and when hearing they are caused to believe it, and are made likewise to endure to the end in the faith which works by love, and should they at any time go astray, they are recovered and set right again.” Here are Election and eternal security.

As a consequence Augustine wrote two treatises: the first was entitled On the Predestination of the Saints, and the second On the Gift of Perseverance. In the first, Augustine reaffirmed that Predestination is in no way based upon foreseen merit in the elect.

All a man’s strivings in his own strength to achieve holiness of life apart from the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit are in vain, and Augustine explained why this is so.

In the second treatise Augustine showed that the Perseverance of the Saints, by which he meant (in modern terminology) the eternal security of the believer, is not dependent upon the good works of the individual believer which would result from his conversion, but entirely upon the constancy and unchangeableness of God’s elective choice (italics his).

I found this on a site: A sister inquires:

"Didn't the doctrine of eternal security or OSAS originate with Augustine and wasn't he Catholic ?? (what I found on the Internet)

And isn't this OSAS doctrine also linked with Calvinism?

So, can anyone find any writings of the early church fathers or Baptists regarding eternal security ?"

THE ANSWER: The earliest English churches of the Baptist name did not believe in security. In his 1611 confession, Thomas Helwys wrote:

"That men may fall away from the grace of God, and from the truth, which they have received and acknowledged, after they have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted of the good word of God, and of the powers of the world to come.

.. And after they have escaped from the filthiness of the World, may be tangled again therein and overcome. That a righteous man may forsake his righteousness and perish. And therefore let no man presume to think that because he has, or had one grace, therefore he shall always have grace.

...But let all men have assurance, that if they continue unto the end, they shall be saved: Let no man then presume; but let all work out their salvation with fear and trembling. Helwys Confession (

Shortly thereafter, another group of Baptists appeared that held the contrary view, as exemplified in the London Confession of 1644:

Those that have this precious faith wrought in them by the Spirit, can never finally nor totally fall away; and though many storms and floods do arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon, but shall be kept by the power of God to salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being formerly engraven upon the palms of God's hands. 1644 London Confession (

If we believe in this Eternal Security, then sin is no longer an issue with us; we are just who we are, and God is just love anyhow, and accepts us as we are, and whatever we do, or ever will do. If you follow this idea logically, it means that God is love and is inclusively permissive, but it does not imply that God is jealously Holy, does it?

This is a huge conflict today in the Church, and I contest, that the adaptation of this doctrine affects HOW you think about everything. God becomes this omnipotent Grace Machine who primarily is just love. I contest that He is not primarily a Grace God, he is Primarily a Holy God; His NAME is Holy.

Grace cannot be given without MERCY, and to receive Mercy there MUST be Repentance. There is also no fear of the Lord manifest, because there is no need! God is all love and grace anyhow. These may talk about it, or even preach about it, but living in holiness and the Cross is another matter.

This is; " When did wrong become right and right become wrong? Did that happen already? "...It is receiving Bad doctrine that skews you inward view of what faith really is and what Grace really you think like this, NOTHING eventually matters, as long as you are basically a good person...and love God.

This is at the heart of Ecumenicalism: The idea that all roads lead to God eventually, and much has been said here on SI, about this dilemma. Glad you brought it up again. The Word of God is not important to these people, but their humanistic concepts of who God is dominate their thinking. As far as Christianity goes, This is THE GREAT FALLING AWAY prophesied of long ago

"The Emerging Church is a movement that claims to be Christian. The term 'Emerging Church' is used to describe a broad, controversial movement that seeks to use culturally sensitive approaches to reach the postmodern, un-churched population with the Christian message. Some Emerging Churches might use props such as candles, statues, and incense along with poems, open mics, and videos, etc. EC services are sometimes extremely informal, while others are more formal.

Emerging Churches seek to reach the lost by focusing on relationships and developing a "story," a "journey of life" that is expressed through the "narrative" of learning. These words and others are often used by emerging teachers in describing their religious experience.

Other terms sometimes usedare "reimagine," "tribe," "story of Jesus," "deconstruction," etc. There is sometimes an ambiguous, feelings-oriented desire to experience God and also share in the lives of people as they seek to find God in their way.

Some Emerging Churches are inclusivistic (those outside of Christianity will be saved), while others are not."

I believe that the ARM/CAL debate is banned here on SI, [Dogma Wars cannot be won, but only warred.] and I AM NOT ARGUING THAT......but simply responded to the why? we have became so watered down in our thinking, and as to the roots of it. BT


 2012/8/5 10:00

Joined: 2012/7/12
Posts: 185
Southeast USA

 Re: Twisted?

Mguldner said:

"when did wrong become right and right become wrong? Did that happen already?"

I feel you here, Mguldner!

It is so confusing, sometimes! If not for God's Holy Word in this age, Wow - I'd be truly and utterly lost! Hell would be happening to me far before I arrived there, if not for His Son, Word and Spirit.

I feel for the generations coming up because they have got sooo much deception in the culture lurking even in their school lunches.

But I, too am a witness to this moral flip-flopping that is going on around us. It's an absolutist's nightmare. This is relativism at its peak.



 2012/8/9 17:28Profile

Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714

 Re: Twisted?

A true born again Christian will live by Spirit. He does not need the letter to tell him what is Sin and what is not a sin. The spirit living in him will bring Godly Sorrow in him leading to repentance.

For example when Zacchaeus received Jesus to his house he immediately announced that he will repay 4 times of what he cheated from others. Where in the letter does it say that you have to give half of your wealth to Poor and repay 4 times to those who Cheat? It is the spirit that revealed him to set things right and he submitted to it. Against such submission there is no law.

CS Lewis said - If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin, and in the end, despair.”


 2012/8/9 23:00Profile

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