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 Fear not. and lots of grace.

I think that this is a relevant issue today, for us all. As many of you may know, I served in Viet-Nam as a combat Marine, and killed, was wounded too, and shivered many a night as enemy mortars were "walked through" our perimeter, exploding in thunderous blasts that seemed sometimes inches away from my fox-hole, while being scores of miles away from any other units or help. [ I was not yet born again, either..]

I saw a lot of people die. This scarred me, and affected my life in very odd ways. I became addicted? to guns....I slept with three loaded guns at my reach for many, many years, I sometimes did not feel secure unless I carried a gun, and often I would awake in the middle of the night after hearing the slightest whisper of a sound, and strap them all on, and stalk through the house, to attack the unseen burglar. This was after I was born again.

Thank God I never had to use them. God never forsook me during this time, as fear and paranoia manifested, and believe it or not, He even used me to minister some, and also revealed Himself to me.

Was it right. No, I was not trusting in God...Was it truly sin?. It was motivated by fear. I understand that perfect love casts out all fear; I know that, but at the time, I had not yet been fully healed...inside. I have given away my guns, except for one shotgun.

I want to suggest something to the husbands and the single men on this forum. IF, men broke into your home, to harm you, and possible rape your wife of children, would you defend yourself? and your family? And if in doing so, would it be evil?

It is one thing to walk in peaceful non-violence for yourself; that would be a much easier choice. I have been confronted by violent men, Muslim extremists, [ ever-so-slightly in comparison ], and believe that I would overcome my fear of death there, and stand, and be willing to; ....but for the sake of my innocent granddaughter?....and apart from the Gospel?

I know that Jesus or the Apostles would lay down their flesh, and trust and believe....but Am I that strong? I hope that the grace of God would be upon me sufficiently so that I would not sin, but stand, and that is a far as I can take it....because my weakness and cowardliness knows no bounds....Who can trust in their flesh?......

Remember brave Peter: But Peter said unto him, "Although all shall be offended, yet will not I."

And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise.

............ Likewise also said they all.".Mark 14

Either God will give us grace in that day to trust and obey, or he won't. I think He will, in spite of our weak and prideful resolve, whatever it may be.

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Amen: Fear not.



 2012/8/1 9:02
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5379
NC, USA

 Re: Fear not. and lots of grace.

It seems that Jesus taught personal non-resistance- i.e turning the other cheek. I agree with BT regarding this.

He did not teach that we should not protect the innocent. If anyone sees somewhere that He did, please point it out.

It is not loving to stand by an allow an innocent person to be maimed, raped or killed if we are able to prevent same. It may be that in the process of preventing this the bad guy may die. I honestly beieve that in this situation the Lord will understand.

It would be far more unloving to spare the life of an evil person and let him have his way with an innocent person, than to take his life and spare the innocents. An evil person perpetrating a violent crime is reaping what he sows. He shouldn't get a "pass" from believers.

Anyways, IMO it is ok for a Christian to kill a person in the appropriate circumstance. it is never okay, obviously, for a Christian to murder a person.


_________________
Todd

 2012/8/1 16:29Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7470
Mississippi

 Re:

TMK wrote:

"Anyways, IMO it is ok for a Christian to kill a person in the appropriate circumstance. it is never okay, obviously, for a Christian to murder a person."

Have any NT scripture to prove this?

BTW, did you read Blayne's testimony? Inspiring read...


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2012/8/2 12:09Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5379
NC, USA

 Re:

"to permit murder when one could have prevented it is morally wrong. To allow a rape when one could have hindered it is an evil. To watch an act of cruelty to children without trying to intervene is morally inexcusable. In brief, not resisting evil is an evil of omission, and an evil of omission can be just as evil as an evil of commission. Any man who refuses to protect his wife and children against a violent intruder fails them morally." ~~Norman Geisler and JP Moreland, "The Life and Death Debate: Moral Issues for Our Time"

Jesus told his disciples to buy a sword (Lk 22:36). A plain reading of the passage is that the sword was to be used in self-defense.

What kind of man would stand by and watch their wife or daughter be raped, or what kind of woman would allow their young child to be kidnapped w/o resisting? If an action to defend against and possibly kill the evildoer is "immoral" then what does "moral" mean?

As to NT "proof" obviously there is no direct statement or else we would not be having this discussion.

But this may suffice, from Romans 14:

"Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another."

Obviously if a person thinks it would be a sin to kill an evil person in order to protect an innocent person or persons from his evil action, then yes it would be a sin for that person. But the converse is also true. Like I said, I am sure God would understand and give grace in such a situation.

Quite frankly, I cannot imagine Jesus or any NT apostle standing idly by and allowing a child to be kidnapped or harmed, or a woman to be raped if it was in their power to prevent it. The lack of any NT examples cannot be taken as an indication of what they would or would not have done.

The admonitions of "turning the other cheek" applies to mild insults and slanders and persecutions and the like. This is far different from defending oneself or others against a mugger, murderer or rapist.


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Todd

 2012/8/2 15:06Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

After seeing this thread (and the others like it), I have been pondering something.

There are many brethren who are "non-resistant" and would never pick up a sword or gun. Yet, some are very quick to use words that harm, strike or discourage others.

We must realize the precept before than the application of this topic. We must love not just the world, but even brethren with whom we might agree. We should not "strike" with our words and thoughts.

The old adage about "sticks and stones" is true. Words can be more damaging to a heart, mind and reputation than any thrust of a sword of strike of a bullet.

May the Lord help us to love...and to show that love...and make that love evident in all that we say or do. The world will know that we are His because we love one another. If we can't love our brethren, then how can we claim to love God?

I Corinthians 13
I John 4:7-8
Galatians 5:22-23


_________________
Christopher

 2012/8/2 15:52Profile
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Quote:
Jesus told his disciples to buy a sword (Lk 22:36). A plain reading of the passage is that the sword was to be used in self-defense.



Hi TMK,

The only explanation that I've heard (that makes sense) regarding this scripture is Jesus was asking how many swords that they had on hand to literally fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah 53:12 "and was numbered with the transgressors..." transgressors being plural.

If they had one sword it would have been 'transgressor' but to literally fulfill the prophesy they had to have 2 swords.

To me this has been the only explanation that makes sense because He said in Matthew 26:52 “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." note the word ALL, including Christians.

Anyway $.02 added :-)

 2012/8/2 17:57Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Most robbers and rapists that break into homes with an entire family there (including the husband) usually have weapons. Most true believers in the world (not just the U.S.) don't have weapons because they have no need of them. Most Christian men who don't have weapons would certainly try to physically subdue the attacker if their speaking to the attacker did not convince them to stop. But, if the attacker had a weapon the father/husband would most probably be killed.

Jesus told the disciples to get a sword to fulfill scripture that "he was numbered with the transgressors". Certainly, two swords were enough because it only took one sword to cut off the guy's ear. Did Jesus commend Peter? On the contrary, He scolded Peter. He did not tell them to get a sword so that He could be defended but so that scripture could be fulfilled. Two swords were enough for that, but certainly not enough to protect Jesus against a large company of men.

Remember, that God operates in the Spirit and so do His children and God does not operate on the level of "morals".

If God operated on the level of morals, then yes, Christians should pick up arms and slay all the "wicked" men in the world, but God does not operate on that level. The Bible is not a moral guidebook. The Holy Spirit leads us and teaches how to walk and what to say.


"Morality is part of the condition of the fall. Now endowed with the power to define good and evil, to elaborate it, to know it and to pretend to obey it, man can no longer renounce this power which he has purchased so dearly. He must exercise it. He (fallen man) cannot live without morality." (Jacques Ellul)

Pilgrim

 2012/8/2 22:51Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5379
NC, USA

 Re:

Hey Learjet--

I have heard that interpretation as well and it may be correct.

But it begs the question as to what Jesus (or Peter, or Paul) would have done if a young child was being brutalized by a thug right in front of them. I think the thug may have been in serious trouble.

Once again, I cannot envision them just standing there and doing nothing. It is not a sin to use violence to protect the innocent.

If there are people here who think that it is, i guess that is okay. There will just never be a meeting of the minds on this topic, and again I believe that God grants grace in this area. I.e. I don't think He frowns on a person who uses violence to protect the innocent.


_________________
Todd

 2012/8/2 22:55Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

TMK, God sees young children abused everyday - what is He doing about it? You are trying to measure God by your own sense of morality and if you do that, you will only conclude that God is unjust and unloving (and evil) because it is within His power to intervene and stop all the wicked injustices in this world.

So, what do you think of God now that you know He sees everything that is happening on earth, has the power to stop evil, terrible things that happen to children but does not?

Is He just standing there and doing nothing? How come He is not using "violence to protect the innocent"?

Do you see, that you cannot measure God or His children by your sense of "morality"?

Pilgrim

 2012/8/2 23:23Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! 'Pilgrim777'

As you know, I'm guilty of introducing a shade of this same issue in an earlier Thread; however, I worded it rather ambiguously. But you had the courage to overtly confront the issue head-on. I honor you for that!

It's questions like this which invite us to examine the very core substance of our belief and faith; revealing our Christian posture in a way that perhaps no other issue can so dramatically do so.
As such, it can be often uncomfortable for many of us to give answer to the issue in the same head-on manner which it was asked.
But answer it we must ... hypothetically 'er not.

It's a healthy thing to deliberately challenge ourselves and our thoughts. It can often lend us a confidence and certainty about something which many of us might not have inwardly examined before.

Thanks for the Thread, 'Pilgrim777'. I'm enjoying the discussion very much.

 2012/8/3 1:15Profile





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