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proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: jeffmar

Hi Jeff, I assume you where speaking to "Sidewalk when you wrote // Cash bet you're ex-military. Brainwashing upon entrance into the military is intentional and for a reason.//


"conscious objector route"

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45869&forum=35

 2012/7/31 1:10Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Should Christians Kill People?

Maybe a different perspective.

Israel often considered such questions, and still does to this day. Since they live under the law, they are bound to try to keep the law through their own fleshly efforts. So it is with the mind alone that they must consider what God would have them do. Enter Talmudic tradition. They would enter into a long discussion of what exactly constitutes killing another person. Though to some this may seem a simple task, it can occupy hour upon hour of debate and wrangling until a good definition is finally reached, and the definition may vary based upon the minute circumstances of the event. Once the definition is reached, then judges must wrangle with each new case, comparing it to the teaching of the rabbis.

The new covenant deals with the heart, or spirit, of man. We are reborn by the Spirit of God and, according to 1 Cor. 2, now possess the mind of Christ. We learn to be governed by the internal leading of the Holy Spirit is concerned. We should begin to act in accordance with the Spirit of God, as we are indwelt by that same Spirit.

So I am confident that we cannot gain the heart of God on the matter through trying to reason out what it means to kill another. I do know that under the law God did not say that one man shall not kill another. He said, "Thou shalt commit no murder." I do know that murder, premeditated or no, comes from sin in the heart and not from a lack of understanding of what the law has to say about killing.

Jesus said, If a man hates his brother it is as if he has killed him in his heart already. In other words, murder is the physical manifestation of something that was already present in the heart of a man. So the real issue, perhaps, is not, "Should a Christian Kill?", but rather, "Do I as a Christian harbor hatred, bitterness, unforgiveness, etc. in my heart toward any man?"


_________________
Travis

 2012/7/31 9:13Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

No.


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Christiaan

 2012/7/31 10:50Profile
Zionshield
Member



Joined: 2007/2/13
Posts: 135
Ohio

 Re: Should Christians Kill People?

The question brings to mind only a few situations where that would be possible: being a soldier or an officer of the law or defense of self or other lives. In either case killing would not have to be an act of murder though it could be.

I can't help but wonder if these threads were born from the DB threads and his involvement in the plot against Hitler. It is a good thing to ask.

I wonder what Abraham was going through upon hearing God's command to kill Isaac. Did he believe God would prevent it? If he believed God would raise Isaac he still would have had to kill him.

Did he have to come to a place of choosing to obey God although he knew killing is "wrong"?


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Randy Lambert

 2012/7/31 23:32Profile
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 530
America's Heartand

 Re:

Zionshiled stated

Quote:
I wonder what Abraham was going through upon hearing God's command to kill Isaac. Did he believe God would prevent it? If he believed God would raise Isaac he still would have had to kill him.

Did he have to come to a place of choosing to obey God although he knew killing is "wrong"?



That is a great thought and perspective Zionshield!

Many here may know that the book of Hebrews makes that exact point. Abraham did indeed receive his son "back to life" in a way as he believed God would raise him from the dead after Abraham slew him in obedience to God's command.

Your initial thoughts are also well taken.

Those who have a working knowledge of Hebrew... or anyone who is willing to do basic word studies with the reference tools available , realize that the actual command of God was not , "Thou Shall Not Kill" but rather "Thou Shall Not Commit Murder". There is a world of difference!

There are certainly times that in harmony with God's law it is the correct choice of action to use lethal force. They are limited and precise... but those times do exist.

 2012/7/31 23:51Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Jesus brought a new way of thinking, but first He lived that life before all of us.

The Bible says, that "as He is in the world, so are we".

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

How about this one for faith and love?

My wife and daughters don't want me to kill anyone, no matter what!

Pilgrim

 2012/8/1 0:10Profile
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 530
America's Heartand

 Re:

@ Pilgrim777

I, for one at least, appreciate your brutal honesty and willingness to at least make a stand!

Are you then saying that your wife and daughters have stated to you that they prefer you to ALLOW them to be raped and murdered as opposed to using lethal force to defend them if the situation were to ever arise?

Again brother, I appreciate the fact you are willing to make a stand one way or another. I know these are hard questions... but we may well need to answer them as believers in the days ahead.

Blessings!

 2012/8/1 0:18Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re:

Whoa, Jeffmar!

I think you have missed my point entirely! We are living in a place and time somewhat rare in history where we have lavish freedom to discuss the way we feel about killing, compassion, the laws of man and the laws of God. It has not been so for most of human history, and killing has been the template for human governance most of that time. Jesus recognized it, as did Paul and the other apostles.

In no way does my being a brainwashed ex-military person change anything, I only relate that I have seen killing close up, heard the shrieks, smelled the blood. If anything, my wartime experience which is nearly 40 years old, gives me a love of life and healing I probably wouldn't have had without it. I came to this site because I am passionate for the Lord Jesus, His Kingdom, His people, and everything else He loves. Actually, I love you!

I often don't open up on the forum because I am listening to the messages available here while I work.

Back to what I think you misinterpreted. I believe that God's own passion for His children has always been a life and death matter. He is not willing that any should perish but that all might come to repentance- clearly letting the hearer know that those who refuse repentance will certainly perish. Stretching a bit further, those who ensure that others perish come under a fearful condemnation of a Holy God.

Jesus own teaching in the parables had kings ordering the death of evil people in his presence. So much for "Gentle Jesus Meek and Mild..."

A parable in Matthew 22 has a man whose only crime is that he is attending a wedding feast without a proper wedding garment. He is not just bounced to the street, he is remanded to what can only be described as Hell! And this is New Testament!

No, Jesus was not given to hanging millstones on people, and Peter did not order Ananias' and Sapphira's execution. But the Holy Spirit is not to be trifled with. God has incredible patience, but an end is coming. He has given us more than enough warning.

You and I are under obligation, as Paul puts it in 1Tim 1:5, to pursue love from a pure heart, have a good conscience, and express a sincere faith.

Well said Paul! That's all I want anyway. Oh God keep washing my brains in the sweet water of Your Word!



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Tom Cameron

 2012/8/1 0:38Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Hey there Solomon,

We have been following the persecuted church for over 30 years and know quite well how Christians are treated. We also know how Christians have responded in many ways. Some with force and others "as lambs led to the slaughter".

This is not a new topic to us and we have met and talked with those that have "resisted against blood".

I can tell you that my wife and daughters and myself really believe this:

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are not fearful, we don't walk in fear, we don't fear the future, we don't fear man, we are not making preparations to defend ourselves as we don't see that in the Word and we are not led by the Spirit to do that. We trust the Lord that He has a purpose for everything that He allows in our lives and I think that is the bottom line. We entrust our future in His hands and no hypothetically, macabre "what ifs" are going to make us second guess the way that God is leading us. We are ready to die for Him if that will save the killer of our body.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The thing about "defending" oneself, is where does it stop?

First it is the rapist, then the robber, then we self-justify that we must take up arms against a Dictator taking over our country (even though we are suppose to obey all in authority - written to Roman Christians), then we justify that we must defend the worldly nation we live in against another nation which is being aggressive against us. Then we justify that we must go and defend our allies since we cannot let evil take over the world. And before you know it, you are killing all kinds of people just to "save your own life". And, in the end, you (speaking generally here) sit self-assured that you have done God's will and been on the side of RIGHT.

Where do you stop defending yourself and saving your life?

Do you really want to start asking hypothetical questions? I could ask you a lot. But, all you have to ask yourself, is at what point would you stop killing?

I have heard people say, that if I was being persecuted for the Gospel sake then I would not defend myself, but if the Gospel had nothing to do with it, then I would do anything to defend myself. There is a danger in that thinking. Do you know what it is?

Peace,
Pilgrim

 2012/8/1 1:20Profile
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 530
America's Heartand

 Re:

Pilgrim777 -

Thanks for your input brother. I appreciate it greatly.

I feel we may need to hash out these issues now so we don't have to hash them out under the eyes of the persecutors.

Thanks again bro. You have my deepest respect for taking a stand one way or another.

May the peace of God rule and reign in your heat and life by Christ Jesus. I pray that you will have the wisdom of God to lead and guide you in your decisions in the days to come and that you will be anointed with His words to speak life to those He brings you into contact with.

Blessings!

 2012/8/1 1:38Profile





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