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pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:


Again...taking one verse and ignoring the others that bring the full picture is to do one of 2 things

1. enjoying a game of see-saw

2. Creating a man made doctrine that is not based in the truth.

Pilgrim

 2012/8/3 14:18Profile









 Re:

Oh my, I didn't notice this at my first quick glance.

Solomon wrote: "The idea has been put forth that to own firearms that can be used to provide lethal force in a life/death self protection situation somehow mean one is trusting in the firearm and not on God."

I didn't realize this had gone beyond just defending the innocent to SELF protection. To Kill Someone Else To Stay Alive Yourself?

Blast them to Hell so that you don't have to go to Heaven any sooner than YOU determine to? ... and you question us questioning your Trust in GOD, Pastor?

 2012/8/3 14:19









 Re:


Pilgrim, I can't post to this anymore. Thank you for your posts.

 2012/8/3 14:23
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 529
America's Heartand

 Re:

Hey J.I.G

You wrote

Quote:
Solomon wrote: "The idea has been put forth that to own firearms that can be used to provide lethal force in a life/death self protection situation somehow mean one is trusting in the firearm and not on God."

I didn't realize this had gone beyond just defending the innocent to SELF protection. To Kill Someone Else To Stay Alive Yourself?

Blast them to Hell so that you don't have to go to Heaven any sooner than YOU determine to? ... and you question us questioning your Trust in GOD, Pastor?



I think if you will reread that you will see that it was not me making that statement. I said,
Quote:
The idea has been put forth



I am quoting other posts... not my own. It was a quote.. not a statement.

I think that is fairly clear as NOT ONCE did I mention self protection in any of the posts. It has ALWAYS been about saving innocents in my reasonings.

I agree with you that self defense is a different topic and therefore requires different lines of thought. Using lethal force to defend your wife and kids from imminent danger is a different issue than me defending myself.

Both are worth discussing. However, I agree... they are certainly very different issues!

Also...I moved the dialogue to one side to point by point address some of the baseless statements being made. However, did you read the last statement-

I stated
Quote:
I am not saying that a person should or should not own firearms. I am however making the point that to own them, and under certain difficult circumstances use them in a lethal fashion, is in no way inconsistent with scripture. God forbid any here ever face this dilemma. However, if one does they are well within the boundaries of scripture to save their wife and daughters from rape, mutilation, and murder with the use of lethal force.



That is it really. Men have abdicated so much of their responsibilities in our current society. There are many more... priest of the home...example to their children. Obviously, thank God for the ones who have not... but it is fair to say that family protection along with other areas have seen men often fail to embrace their responsibility before God.

I made a marriage vow. I stated.. "I promise before God and these witnesses to LOVE, HONOR, CHERISH AND PROTECT this woman from this day forward...." I actually meant mine. Some guys do... some may not. I did.

 2012/8/3 14:31Profile









 Re:

Because you addressed me directly, I can't expect someone else to answer for me ....

Solomon, this is what you wrote ...

""1. The idea has been put forth that to own firearms that can be used to provide lethal force in a life/death self protection situation somehow mean one is trusting in the firearm and not on God. It has been said that to own them with the knowledge they might be used indicates lack of trust in God.

I RESPOND: If a person actually believes that then let me ask a few other questions of them. Do you have locks on your doors? Do you at times lock them? If so that would be hypocrisy as you are by your own definition trusting something other than the Lord.

Further, do you use seat belts... why, don't you trust the Lord to keep you safe and not the item? Do you at times take medication or go to a doctor.. why.. don't you trust the Lord? Do you teach your kids to read and obey traffic signs, not play in the street, or walk with strangers?..Why? Don't you trust the Lord. I can go on and on.. however, the point is clear. I would no more be trusting in a firearm for my safety, if I own one, than I am trusting the seat belt for my safety. In both cases they are simply tools that are hopefully never used. However, I trust in God and am willing to use the tools he puts at my disposal if needed.""


If that doesn't look like a defense of self-defense - what was your "I RESPOND" with, for? What impression did it give on your view of self-defense?

I'm not yelling at you - but only addressed your "responses" to someone else's "idea that has been put forth".

Can you see how your #1 seems to be leading one to believe that you're defending lethal self-defense?


If that were the case - that would already be, "pre-meditated murder" - [IF that were the case for any of us].

If we compared 'self-defense' with locking our doors and buckling-up in our car --- then we'd be saying, according to your 'response' that if anybody tries to kill us - we'll kill them first.

When Nicky Cruz threatened an unarmed David Wilkerson with a knife - David basically said to him [I don't have the exact quote in front of me], 'Though you cut me up into a thousand pieces, every piece will say, "I love you".'


Carrying that down to your point about "persecution" and that, that is when you will not defend yourself --- HOW do you define "persecution"?

Anyone that wants to kill me - is "persecuting" me - because the devil in them knows that GOD's in me.

Not a sparrow falls without His Will and the Sermon on The Mount is loaded with His Words about anybody trying to kill us. All week that Sermon of His has been on my mind, about "our lives".


All His Best.



 2012/8/3 15:01
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 529
America's Heartand

 Re:

Hey Jig-

Yeah...I think you are entirely missing my point on that one. Maybe it is a failure to connect on what is intended. Maybe it was unclear... maybe you were expecting it to say something it actually didn't...I don't know...I guess it doesn't really matter.

The entirety of that point was simply the line that states

Quote:
I would no more be trusting in a firearm for my safety, if I own one, than I am trusting the seat belt for my safety. In both cases they are simply tools that are hopefully never used. However, I trust in God and am willing to use the tools he puts at my disposal if needed.""



The one, only, and singular point I am trying to share is that these inanimate objects..guns, cars, door locks, safety belts, shoes, whatever it might be... are all just amoral tools. We can use them for good or evil. I do not put faith in locks, cars, politicians, or guns. As I stated, my faith, and most here, is clearly in God.

These things are simply tools. I do not put faith in any of them... but I will use the ones in my reach if they are needed. That can mean a lawnmower, hammer, or gun if it is to defend my loved ones.

That is it. Nothing more, less,or else.

People in this thread have stated that to own firearms means you do not trust God. I strongly disagree. To own them no more means you trust them and not God than buckling up your seat belt means you do not trust God.

You can certainly lock your front door, buckle your seat belt, and own firearms... all while having deep abiding faith in Christ!

Those are just tools that I pray you never , or anyone on SI ever, needs!

Blessings JIG. I appreciate your passion. You do misunderstand my posts greatly. However, that is ok.

I obviously take the protection of family as a sacred responsibility before God. Some do not... and some do but in different ways.

However, to keep it on a discussion level is healthy and lets us consider things in ways we may not have before.

 2012/8/3 15:15Profile









 Re:


Well, besides the 8 pages of this thread - we did have the other threads and I suppose that I was the only one that "misunderstood your posts greatly" and that's why this discussion has gone on all week on three threads.


"However, that is ok."


Sure, it's OK with me too to end this discussion and go back to the threads on the Persecution and Evangelism.



GOD's speed!

 2012/8/3 15:28
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

I pursue this thread, not to bring division, but to bring clarity to the thread's focus. The source of disagreement is not based on guns really. It is based on divided view of God.

In this thread, and others that I have participated in, many have not understood why Abraham is given as a prime example of faith. We gentiles hold the ministry of Paul above all others, and to a certain extent, this is right. For we are gentiles and God called Paul to this reveal this dispensation.


With that said, why do we gentiles neglect Paul's use of Abraham as primary testimony of how God creates faith in men?

Is Paul wrong or is our understanding of faith wrong?


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2012/8/5 15:37Profile









 Re:

Hi Rookie. Blessings to you & yours.

Some of us feel that it takes more faith in The GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to trust Him to protect us than to trust in any premeditated weapon.

That His Spirit that we walk in, listen to and are miraculously guided by, will "at the time it's needed" will provide the answer and means in which we are to protect another.
I say that, knowing full well, having the same blood type as my father and his mother, that she was Jewish that raised me.

I don't see The Book as two books but One and The Same GOD from Genesis on to the Revelation and the same "faith" and the same faith as Paul preached and the book of Hebrews.


Bless you and I pray that you can understand our differing 'convictions' on this one matter, of whether to arm oneself or not to.

Bless you again!

 2012/8/5 15:52









 Re:

Looking like children having fun here. Well ask a more real question if ur're in a war front, and u are a beliver won't u use a gun?

 2012/8/5 19:01





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