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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

hmmhmm wrote:

"All "what if" is hard to answer, i think a good rule is to instead of put myself in a "what if" question is to put what would our Lord do? He is our forerunner, our example, so by the principles i find in scripture how can I apply that to my life, thoughts, actions. What would Jesus do in this situation given my understanding of the principles laid out in scripture?"


Now we are getting somewhere...


You have pointed out an important precept. I should not say that I am certain that I would respond in the same way in every situation. If the Lord chooses to intercede, I should respond according to His direction.

This idea, "what would the Lord do?" is critical to the decisions that we make. Many speak of the testimony we have in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Many refer to the "example" He set before His resurrection. Many use this "example" as a guideline to be modeled. Yet faith based on this "example" does not give the individual understanding into what his response should be according to the circumstances he or she finds one self in.


hmmmhmmm writes:

"I guess using a gun can also be like that, myself have come to the conclusion i think I would not, i do not ever see our Lord take arms, and our weapons are not carnal."


2Cr 10:2 But I beg [you] that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.

2Cr 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.

2Cr 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,

2Cr 10:5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,



I believe we often take this Scripture out of context. Paul is speaking about his authority over the Corinthian church. He states that the Corinthians look to him "in the flesh" as being weak. Yet Paul states that the real power comes from the Spirit. That the word of God is mighty and powerful. And that the word of God is used to the "pulling down of strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself the knowledge of God."


For me, according to this tread, the "what if" can not be dismissed off handedly. I see that Scripture differentiates between the roles of men and women. I see that when the men have not lived according to the ways God has established, the weak and the poor suffer.


Based on Isaiah 3 and 4, in times of unfaithful generations of men, women rule over them. When judgement comes to that generation, and the evil is removed, the men are restored, the women seek for the security that men offer. This statement is not meant to silence the women on this thread. This statement is made to acknowlege the economy of God. This statement is made to affirm what Scripture teaches.


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2012/8/2 11:40Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

We often hold up the "example" of Christ and how He responded to every situation that He was confronted with. You see this "example" is really "what He was called to do." He was so to speak "assigned" with the task to offer Himself as a sacrifice for God's creation. And we too are "called by God to be a living sacrifice" in His plan.

Yet our "calling" is not the same as Christ's "calling." We are given many "examples" or "testimonies" of men and women who lived by faith, that is those who obeyed the voice of God and found the path to life. The "calling" of the individual is subject to the plan of God. It is God who works out the details of His plan.

There was a time where I segmented God into categories. I seperated the OT god from the NT god. I would also point out the "example" given to us in the gospels. Yet as I learn from the Scriptures, the more uncertain, of anything I am as to "knowing", what God is doing at any moment in time. Who am I to judge another servant of the Lord in regards to what the Lord has "called" him to do.
His "calling" is as numerous as the grains of sand found in the ocean.


So the "examples" given to us of faithful men and women are a representation of His "callings." Each one is found faithful for responding to the "call" that God has placed on the individual. Therefore I can not deny a "calling" of God for such as a Caleb or a David, because these men did not try to "model" Christ. I instead seek to understand how that "calling" fits into God's plan.


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2012/8/2 12:48Profile









 Re:


I suppose my point is - that when my or any Pastor tells me, that I or my family won't be "safe" until we go out and get a gun -
at that point I would leave that 'church' and never look back again.

 2012/8/3 10:02
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 536
America's Flyover Country

 Re:

Interesting thoughts so far. I wonder if the overall site views are a much higher female population or if they are just the ones responding in larger numbers on this thread.

It seems there are also several misconceptions that keep being perpetuated. In the interest of clarity please allow me to highlight a few of the more obvious ones-

1. The idea has been put forth that to own firearms that can be used to provide lethal force in a life/death self protection situation somehow mean one is trusting in the firearm and not on God. It has been said that to own them with the knowledge they might be used indicates lack of trust in God.

I RESPOND: If a person actually believes that then let me ask a few other questions of them. Do you have locks on your doors? Do you at times lock them? If so that would seem to be hypocrisy as you are by your own definition "trusting something other than the Lord" for a degree of safety.

Further, do you use seat belts... why, don't you trust the Lord to keep you safe and not the item? Do you at times take medication or go to a doctor.. why.. don't you trust the Lord? Do you teach your kids to read and obey traffic signs, not play in the street, or walk with strangers?..Why? Don't you trust the Lord. I can go on and on.. however, the point is clear. I would no more be trusting in a firearm for my safety, if I own one, than I am trusting the seat belt for my safety. In both cases they are simply tools that are hopefully never used. However, I trust in God and am willing to use the tools he puts at my disposal if needed.

2. The scripture of Jesus telling the disciples that, "Those who live by the sword die by the sword".

I RESPOND: True. Ask any dictator that has gone that route. However, "living by" the sword has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with saving the life of an innocent from attack. They have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with each other.

3. Using scriptures that apply only to persecution for righteousness sake as a proof text for non firearm ownership.

I RESPOND: That is unfaithfully handling the Word of God. I think it is agreed here that the scripture clearly teaches 2 things concerning PERSECUTION FOR THE FAITH. One is that it tells us to at times flee from it. The second is that at times we may be called to stand and be a witness in it. In either case it is to be met with non violence. That has been true historically and should be in our lives if it happens. I, and probably all here, agree with that. However, the discussion has NOTHING to do with persecution. The scriptures dealing with persecution for the faith also have nothing to do with heinous crimes randomly committed on innocent people. It is heinous crimes committed by criminals on random people....not persecution for faith in Christ. These random people, regardless of faith, are your family members.

4. Several guys have stated they would allow their wives/daughters to be raped, mutilated, and murdered. They would not use lethal force to stop it. One said he would allow them to do this to his family... and only after they killed his family THEN would he take lethal action.

I RESPOND: I don't know what exact vows you used in your wedding ceremony. However, in addition to our own we used one of the sets from the wedding ceremony manual I use for services. Fairly basic and historic. It states- "I promise before God and these witnesses to LOVE, HONOR, CHERISH AND PROTECT this woman from this day forward...."

Guys...you made a vow before God and those witnesses to PROTECT her! To fail in this responsibility is to abandon the vow you made before God, those witnesses, and her!

If you asked her father for her hand in marriage were you honest enough to say that you would not protect her and would allow her rape, mutilation, or murder if it meant that to protect her you might have to use lethal force?!?!?!

Honestly..will you go tell that to her dad? Did you have the guts to when you asked to marry her?

God forbid any guy ever ask for my daughters hand that doesn't have the dedication to her that he would protect her!

If I were a married female I think I would be absolutely shocked, sickened, and ashamed to know that the one God gave to protect me was willing to possibly abdicate that responsibility and allow the worst of terrors to happen to me... not for my faith... but because they didn't think the innocent should be protected from the guilty!

If it came to it I would rather explain to the police why there are 2 dead intruders in my house with holes in their chests than explain to my inlaws, and my other children, why I simply watched as their daughter, mother, and sisters were raped, mutilated, and murdered.

Is this nothing more than the "feminization" of the men in the church? Most churches make the guys check their masculinity and testosterone at the door to feel welcome. That's why attendance in mainline denominations is often some 65-75 percent female.

5. It has been said that Jesus told His disciples to get a sword only to show it isn't to be used at Gethsemane.

I RESPOND: That would seem to be an absolute butchery of the Word. The entire story is told of how on their first missionary journey they were not to take a sword(for protection), a purse (to hold money), or a bag ( to hold provisions).. but that he would supply them. After they learned the lesson that He was the true source Jesus told the that from now on THEY WERE TO TAKE a sword (for protection), a bag (to hold money), and a purse(to hold provisions).

If the sword were to longer be taken then neither were bag or purse. They are obviously listed together as a "package" if you will. However, they clearly were supposed to be taken. There is not one single scripture that indicates they were to negate these words from Christ.

If you actually believe He no longer wanted them to take a sword then you must delete the other items as well. Do you have something so you CAN TAKE MONEY/CASH WITH YOU?.. say a billfold or purse...then that would seem to be hypocritical! Do you ever travel with ANY CLOTHES AT ALL except the ones on you back...that would seem to be be practicing hypocrisy! So..if you want to abandon the sword statement of Jesus then also never carry cash/credit cards/debit cards/ or ways to pay for things.... or ever have more than the clothing on your back or it looks pretty clear that would constitute hypocrisy. That is right there in the Word for all to see.

SO... with no commands to negate his words to them to take these things THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN IN DISOBEDIENCE TO NOT TAKE ALL THREE ITEMS....SWORD INCLUDED!

Unless they disobeyed Christ the Apostles were normally armed. I know that won't sit well with some.... but it is in the scripture. There is little else to do with it. He told them to take sword, purse, and bag. No record exists of that changing. Hard to believe that they disobeyed Him and didn't take those things.

There is no scripture anywhere to prove that the disciples disobeyed Jesus on this statement. Some may not like that.... but there is no scripture found that says these words of Jesus went into non effect.

I am not saying that a person should or should not own firearms. I am however making the point that to own them, and under certain difficult circumstances use them in a lethal fashion, is in no way inconsistent with scripture. God forbid any here ever face this dilemma. However, if one does they are well within the boundaries of scripture to save their wife and daughters from rape, mutilation, and murder with the use of lethal force.

Well.. hopefully that helps move the discussion along. I have enjoyed reading everyones input!

Blessings!

CAPS used to emphasize words and phrases only. No yelling was intended.

edited to make an example first person as opposed to "general" application

 2012/8/3 11:10Profile









 Re: Females are humans too.

Quote:
I RESPOND: If a person actually believes that then let me ask a few other questions of them. Do you have locks on your doors? Do you at times lock them? If so that would be hypocrisy as you are by your own definition trusting something other than the Lord.

Further, do you use seat belts... why, don't you trust the Lord to keep you safe and not the item? Do you at times take medication or go to a doctor.. why.. don't you trust the Lord? Do you teach your kids to read and obey traffic signs, not play in the street, or walk with strangers?..Why? Don't you trust the Lord. I can go on and on.. however, the point is clear. I would no more be trusting in a firearm for my safety, if I own one, than I am trusting the seat belt for my safety. In both cases they are simply tools that are hopefully never used. However, I trust in God and am willing to use the tools he puts at my disposal if needed.



Bad comparison. Locks on the doors and seat belts in cars Cannot Kill somebody else.

And when you hear that THUD in the night - tell me if you don't depend on your guns.


I don't have time right now to post or even read all that you've written right now and don't know that I will want to - but just the beginning paragraphs were illogical so I fear what will be next.

The commentary on the 'swords' in the New Testament and early Church proves what Jesus meant and didn't mean.

I'm not against The Bill of Rights - but I hold on to those lightly - because Only GOD gives a person/nation any "rights".


I don't believe that this topic is only a male topic.
Some of us women live alone!

 2012/8/3 11:41
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Solomon101 wrote:Ladies...how does it feel to know that the one God gave to protect you is willing to possibly abdicate that responsibility and allow the worst of terrors to happen to you... not for your faith... but because they don't think the innocent should be protected from the guilty.

___________________

I am stunned that you would write such ugly and unloving thing in this forum and for what? So you can have your say or win a debate. Really?? Did you stop for one moment and consider that with these words you might actually cause strife between husbands and wives? To imply that any husband would knowingly allow harm to his family is not right you have no idea what others hold in their hearts or what GOD has lead them too.You make a judgement with your words that you have no right making. I am just so sad to see you write these words here like this, you go to far! I pray no harm comes to any marriages because of your thoughtless words...

mj

 2012/8/3 13:03Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

To build an important and controversial doctrine of self-defense with deadly force on one scripture (taking a sword on their 2nd missionary journey), is bad homiletics at best and eisegesis at worse. Major, important doctrines that send your son's and daughter's off to war and slay robbers better have many scriptures (legs) for it to stand on. You have failed to present this important doctrine from the life of Christ and His Apostles and the Early Church. That's 3 strikes. You're out!!

On the other hand we have many words from Jesus and the Apostles contrary to this carnal doctrine of self-defense with deadly force. You want to protect your family...then fast and pray.

Jesus is our standard. His Spirit living in us will not contradict how He lived and how He died. "As He is in this world so are we" and the Spirit of Christ living in us (if He does), will change us to be like Christ (if we yield to Him and bring our will into harmony with His).

Blessings to all,
Pilgrim

 2012/8/3 13:05Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

In Genesis 14 we have this testimony of faith.


Gen 14:18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he [was] the priest of God Most High.

Gen 14:19 And he blessed him and said: "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;

Gen 14:20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." And he gave him a tithe of all.


Abraham, who according to Scripture, who prepared for an event where he was called to protect his family, had just returned from destroying those who meant harm to his family. He chased the predators for over a hundred miles in order to restore his family. Then we have this testimony above in Scripture...

You see the High Priest Melchizedek blessed Abraham and established that God had given him the victory.

Going back again to the call of God for men to protect what God has given him. You see Lot was the nephew of Abraham. And according to the Law which had not yet been given to man through Moses, in that Law, God has given Abraham the responsibility of caring for his dead brother's son. You see the law being established through faith. And faith comes by the hearing of the word of God. It was God who "called" upon Abraham to protect his family.


The word of God is able to tear down the strongholds of Satan. One of those strongholds has been revealed in this thread.


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2012/8/3 13:29Profile









 Re:

Got the call that I have the day off.

I understand why MaryJane would be upset at those words and why I was upset with the article by Michael Pearl on page 1 of this thread, where he also stated something similar here .... "The doctrine of pacifism is a selfish doctrine of weak men who are not led by the Spirit and are seeking salvation in their own sacrifice. I will have no part of it."

"Pacifism" is Not Christian Non-Resistance.

We had the best teacher here on SermonIndex and we learned that Christian Non-Resistance WILL defend others when needed but the aim is to Trust GOD with all of your heart that HE will provide the means to stop the/any threatening acts against others by any means that GOD provides with the hope that it will not mean death to the perpetrator but give time for the police to come and arrest the person .... like knock him out or jump them or whatever GOD does through you.

Gun dependers have No Guarantee that they'll be able to get to their gun in time to stop anything.
GOD dependers know that GOD is protecting them and will provide the means to keep them alive - IF it's not their time to go, by His will.

Every gun person that I know that depends on their guns as their solution of protection for their family, would have to stay awake 24/7 with the gun in their hands, be able to see in every direction all at once and be 'with' Every family member the whole of that time to be the Protector - instead of trusting GOD.

I know of a number of forums with this heavy dependence on guns and it becomes almost laughable what becomes of their minds and what comes out of their mouths. Incredible stuff - void of 'logic'. They get gun-crazy after a while when discussing these things.
They're going to shoot the troops that come to get them and their family if Martial Law is announced, etc., etc., etc..


I don't mind anyone having a gun - but they need to realize that some of us have convictions against owning one and that no man is "less of a man" for not having/depending on one and it surely doesn't mean that they/we wouldn't protect the innocent against a criminal ... even if it costs us our own lives to do so. /:

 2012/8/3 13:31
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

rookie,

We have this testimony, too.

Mar 10:3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
Mar 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
Mar 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the HARDNESS of YOUR HEART he wrote you this precept.

And we have this testimony:
Num 31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

Num 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

Num 31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

Num 31:17 Now therefore KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, and KILL EVERY WOMAN that hath known man by lying with him.

So, what was your point, again?

And where does this rationalizing and self-justification stop? Only on your property, or anytime your person is threatened, (including when your country is invaded). Where do you draw the line?

Pilgrim


 2012/8/3 13:48Profile





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