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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The verse that is making me lose sleep! Heb 6:4-6

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jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

pilgrim, are you saying Jesus is not able to keep that which you have comitted to Him?why say this?are you not a man(or woman)?where is your faith and trust placed?if your faith is placed in the finished work of the cross and Jesus is your Lord... you are secure in Him and His provision for you and you can rest in His love for you.jimp

 2012/7/27 10:10Profile
davym
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Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 326


 Re: The verse that is making me lose sleep! Heb 6:4-6


Hi Santana

Quote


"SO WHO IS THIS PERSON THAT PAUL IS TALKING ABOUT?"

It is my view that the writer (probably Paul) is not referring to true believers in the section of Hebrews Ch 6 that you quoted. I believe he is talking about the Jews of that time. The Jews had been enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift and been partakers (better stated 'shared') in the Holy Spirit in the sense that they had enjoyed special privilege in the Old Testament era. They were also witnessing miraculous manifestations of the power of the Holy Spirit during the period of the Acts. I believe these miracles were further signs to the Jews so that they would repent and believe. However, not only were they hardening their hearts, but they were trying to re-establish Judaism with its sacrifices, feasts and rituals and in many cases mixing it with Christianity. This error was troubling Paul (or other writer) because he felt it was confusing and corrupting the true gospel and leading those truly converted Hebrew Christians astray.

Verse 9 of the chapter reinforces the view that the writer had previously not been talking about people who had salvation

'9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. ' (NKJV)

Admittedly, there is a certain amount of ambiguity, but I would hold to the above interpretation. An application could also be made to those in the church today who are not saved, are steeped in religion and in effect are tares, but not to those who are saved. True believers can and do sin, but they don't make a practice of it in their lives. 1 John deals with this subject. The Hebrew letter was written to Hebrew Christians and the correct interpretation should reflect this.

David




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David

 2012/7/27 11:21Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re: The verse that is making me lose sleep! Heb 6:4-6

Hi! 'Santana'

The truth is: our minds can so easily re-invent ghosts or distorted ideas which are very much a fraud and false.
Your expressed thought-world here is exactly such a thing. It is, to put it bluntly, an absolute lie ... in complete contradiction to what God thinks about you and your circumstance.

'Santana', you already know the way back; you already know what is needed to return home ... just like the lost prodigal son.

So then, the question necessarily becomes: What lie am I believing that prevents me from returning home?

Well, 'Santana', I can't presume to have the ability to read your mind. Only YOU have that ability of examining the imaginings of your mind.
Yet, from my own personal experience, I can perhaps make a confident identification of your thoughts through my prior acquaintance with the normal lineup of likely suspects.

The primary suspect is always a false image of God which we have wrongly invented for ourselves.
I have met many who have been victimized at the hands of this malicious suspect.

But first, I want you to know about something that I found rather puzzling about your Post here?
You failed to mention the verse which immediately follows your quote of Hebrews 6:4-6. You didn't mention verse 7.
That's kinna' odd, don't yuh think?
I would have thought that, if someone is intent on using Scripture to condemn himself, that he'd at least quote the applicable verses/statement to it's very end.

Anyways, it's in verse 7 where the answer to your question begins.
"For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God".
This is an image of every man on the earth; including YOU. You too have drank in the rain, which is an image of the Holy Spirit, by Whom the sown word comes into development in your heart.

So now we return to investigate the suspect that I'm meaning to tell you about. How can we identify him? What might be his DNA (Devilish Nature & Accusations) or the signature of his fingerprints?

In a word, you have been robbed of the true face of God!
The devil has caused you to believe lies about Who God is and how He thinks and how He behaves.

The reason you don't feel confident about returning to your heavenly Father and rightful home is that you your thoughts have affixed a false mask to your Father's face and His true identity now remains hidden from you.

There are many faces supposedly belonging to God in the world. Even among Christians, the identity of God's face differs widely among them. The faithful of God, however, earnestly wish to have fellowship with the only true God. Our desire is to follow after the living and unchangeable God in spirit and in truth. Therefore, we first need to properly identify Him; to recognize His true face so that we don't find ourselves following after foreign gods.

It can be an excruciating experience to live in a world without faces; to live in a world believing falsely both about ourselves and about God.

Ask any blind person about what's most painful about blindness and the first thing they will tell you is that they have no memory of faces.
When we sighted people closes our eyes, we should not presume that what we see is comparable to that of a blind person. After all, we still possess the memories of our sight and our mind remains full of familiar colors, shapes and movements. But behind the shut eyes of a blind person are only images devoid of color and depth. Sadly, the blind have no memory of faces.

I recall mentioning the works of this suspect at other occasions here at SI. For instance, about how patients often describe the experience of having a limb amputated. Doctors even have a name for the phenomena, "phantom limbs". Patients would sometimes feel as if their amputated limb was gesturing, feeling itches and twitching. They claimed that the phantom limb felt and behaved as though it were still there.

So it is that the true face of God has ripped Him away from you limb by limb until nothing has remained Him but the itch of His presence.

It's not for nothing that the Scripture says:
"If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and SEEK MY FACE and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land".

So, I recommend that you seek the TRUE face of God; that you reject the false face which the DNA (devilish nature and accusations) of the evil one is giving you.

Is this not true what I'm now saying to you?
Even when you sincerely attempted to return home, you discovered that you were unable to recognize Him; you hurried past His inviting and outstretched hands without a thought about Who He might be.
Because you were seeking after a foreign God, you instead stumbled into the unwelcome sight of some creature who met you with a disapproving frown and with his hands shoved stubbornly in his pockets.

So, 'Santana', when you kneel down today and decide once again to return home, you need to be able to recognize His face.

Here's a start from the Amplified version that makes everything about God's face plain:

If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]. (1John 1:9)

May God bless you richly!

 2012/7/27 11:32Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Quote:
pilgrim, are you saying Jesus is not able to keep that which you have comitted to Him?why say this?are you not a man(or woman)?where is your faith and trust placed?if your faith is placed in the finished work of the cross and Jesus is your Lord... you are secure in Him and His provision for you and you can rest in His love for you.jimp



Well, you have to commit it to Him, don't you? That is also not a one time event but is contained in abiding in Him. In other words you commit and keep committing to Him, but you can't very well do this if you stop abiding in Him.

Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are saying is that if you get saved but become offended sometime in your walk and refuse to abide in the Lord from that time on, it's nothing really to worry about. Even though you are practically fallen away as far as anyone can tell, you will still be saved because God never left you (even though you left Him). Afterall, you committed something to the Lord at the beginning, so at least God will "KEEP" your eternal salvation intact.

Is this what you are saying?

So, why not just enjoy the world, and try to escape as much uncomfortableness (persecution, tribulation) as possible? I mean, "such a deal", who can refuse. Why pick up our cross (even though it was a command)?

I think Jesus was being a legalist telling the Rich Young Ruler to forsake his sin. He certainly wasn't preaching the Gospel of Grace at that time, was He? Maybe, He was having a bad day. If the Rich Young Ruler only knew that he only had to forsake his sin to get saved but after that everything was golden and he could cherish any idol in his heart after salvation and still be saved. Afterall, he was a now a "card-carrying", verifiable SON and even SEALED with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Wow! Is this true? I like this Gospel.

Jimp, religious flesh hates to die and thinks up many ways to climb over the wall rather than go through the DOOR.

Pilgrim

 2012/7/27 11:50Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! "Pilgrim777"

Yeah, this can oftentimes be perceived as indistinguishable ... even to sincere and genuine Christians ... the wall and the door.
Thanks!

 2012/7/27 12:14Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

In the opening OP the verse was written to Hebrew Christians. It doesn't apply to Hebrew non-Christians, because they are already due for God's wrath. Eph 2:3.

Anyone who is saved, who endures to the end as a faithful soldier of the cross, will be saved. No doubt about it.

An unrighteous person sees everything one way. But if we can repent of sin by turning to God then we can also repent of turning to God by turning to sin. Are the ways of the Lord not equal...or are they falsely balanced as men's ways???

For more understanding of the freedom that God gives to His creation I suggest this book...

THE BIBLE!

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you DO ERR FROM THE TRUTH, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Jesus is not our "Heavenly Masseur", comforting us in our sin.

He admonishes and warns.

Pilgrim

 2012/7/27 12:23Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

So if I am able to fall, then I am taking myself out the hand of Jesus and out of the hand of our Father? That is impossible, unless I am stronger than God and make Jesus of no avail. So the scripture is correct, If it were possible to fall out of the hands of Jesus and our Father I could not return. This then is the impossibility. That is the better things. Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded (to rely on by inward certainty) better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

I believe this is what Paul is saying; You Hebrew Christians cannot go back into the Jewish way of life, it is impossible, because if you did you would be crucifying to yourself Jesus Christ a second time, which is impossible. "Though we thus speak". For once you are born again there is no second death. I died once when I was crucified with Christ, never to die again. For the second death has no power over me. It does not depend on my falling away, but On God who has given me new Life in the power of the incorruptable Seed of His Son that is now my Spirit and lives in me forever, SEALED, by His Holy Spirit.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Condemnation is of the Devil. Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2012/7/27 16:46Profile
richrock
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Joined: 2012/2/27
Posts: 93
UK

 Re:

I listened to an interesting sermon that tackled this very scripture (not sure if I can name the 'competiton') but the sermon was called 'Warning' by Richard Caldwell Jr. I found it very helpful as it highlighted the concern this passage entails, then proceeds to expound it piece by piece. It might help you.

I speak to some Christians and the mention of this or the 'lord, lord did we not..' passage causes such uncertainty - I find it quite sad. I hope you find the sermon and it blesses you with its explanation.

 2012/7/27 17:28Profile
richrock
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Joined: 2012/2/27
Posts: 93
UK

 Re:

Double post - please accept my apologies

 2012/7/27 17:28Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! 'ChristInYou'

It's rather remarkable that you referenced the parable of the Good Shepherd. Especially after the earlier Thread titled 'Biblical View of Speaking Life'.

At first glance, some would believe that a child could understand the parable of the Good Shepherd. Perhaps, this might be why it seems to have become a Sunday school favorite. Yet verse 6 says: "This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them".

The listeners had not been taught to think spiritually. This shouldn't surprise us. They didn't even even understand the meaning of their own worship, for it too was a symbol of the heavenly reality, (Heb 9:9).

The parable of the Sheep Fold reveals to us the Kingdom of God, (the light side of the Kingdom of heaven). The door giving entrance to it stands for repentance and forgiveness of sins through our Lord's suffering and death. This is why Jesus said, "I am the door". The way which Jesus opened is the only lawful way into the Kingdom of God.

John the Baptist was the first servant of God alluding to this truth because his baptism was a baptism of repentance and forgiveness of sins. Accordingly, he spoke to the people about the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".

A new era was ushered in when John announced: "Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Mark 1:4; Matt 3:2 & John 1:29). By his preaching, John drew the attention of the crowds away from the visible sacrifices in the temple. He showed them the spiritual reality and not the temporary shadow of ceremonies and temple traditions. He was the preparer of the way, whose word put the axe at the root of the tree of the Old Covenant.

While the message of John made him the doorkeeper who showed the sheep the right entrance into the Kingdom of God, Jesus "made purification for sins" and so opened the door to the sheepfold.

John's task was "to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared", (Luke 1:17). So, it speaks about there being a preparation. The message of John created a new disposition or will to obey, and it caused man to be fit to enter into the Kingdom of God.

However, the message of Jesus not only caused the disobedient to become willing but also gave them the ability to obey and to enter because they were set free from the powers of darkness which had previously obstructed their entering. This is why Jesus declared: "If it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the Kingdom of God has come upon you", (Matt 12:28).

In this way the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", (the disobedient), were able to enter. This put them in a situation similar to the little children whose parents took them to Jesus and about whom He said: "For to such (consecrated and protected children) belongs the Kingdom of heaven", (Matt 19:14).

Following the resurrection of Jesus, everything became reality, not only for the people of Israel but also for the other nations. Paul's commission was for the Gentiles, "To whom I send you to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in Me", (Acts 26:17-18).
This fulfilled Jesus' words: "And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd", (John 10:16).

In our days there are still multitudes of sincere genuine Christians who insist to only follow after the teachings of John the Baptist. They preach repentance and forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ; but this is where they stop.
Yet, make no mistake. Even those who only accept the message of John enter into the Kingdom of God. This is because the perfect sacrifice has been made and forgiveness of sins has been accepted by them in faith.

On the other hand, while repentance involves a decided TURNING AWAY from the powers of darkness, it is ineffectual to SET FREE the penitent from the powers of darkness. This is why a walk in the Kingdom of God is often discovered to be near impossible for so many of our Christian brothers and sisters.

Thankfully, if a Christian finds himself in the circumstance of needing to be released from the grip of sin, the teaching of Jesus abundantly provides, even if John's does not.

The parable of the Good Shepherd mentions the voice of the shepherd Himself. So there is a voice, or doctrine, of Jesus which is "much more excellent"'. Even though it fits in suitably with what John taught, it is nonetheless a salvation which was for the very first time declared by the Lord and of which "God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will", (Heb 2:3-4).

So, we have a a brotherhood with those who only know the teachings of John the Baptist; those who are acquainted with the forgiveness of sins because it leads these sheep into the same fold. But at the same time, there is a gospel of the Kingdom which distinguishes or shows a separation between the sheep in that one confined room.

That is the reason why Paul asked the disciples of John at Ephesus: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" The apostle added: "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is Jesus. On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied", (Acts 19:1-7).

Have you noticed, 'ChristInYou'? In some other parables of the Kingdom of God too we can note this same distinguishing. For instance, the parable speaking about the city of God and its temple. The "city", New Jerusalem, are those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb of God. But those who have received the baptism with the Holy Spirit and function in the heavenly places are the "temple", which forms the dwelling place of God in the spiritual world.

So it is that we know that John's teachings led the erring sheep of the house of Israel back to the sheepfold. There they form the remnant chosen by grace. In the sheepfold there now is a spiritual Israel from among Jews and Gentiles. But in the midst of these tribes there is the "royal priesthood", (1Peter 2:9). They are anointed with the Holy Spirit. They are the sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel, (Rev 7:4). These are the Good Shepherd's "own" sheep.

Jesus came to the sheepfold, "to lead many sons to glory", for the Kingdom of God reaches beyond the walls of the sheepfold, meaning to say: beyond the knowledge that sins are forgiven and that one has become a child of God.

The Good Shepherd brings His "own sheep" out of the fold, and then He goes before them, and the sheep follow Him, for they know His voice, (John 10:4).

"Knowing His voice" means accepting His words and His ways of thinking. Following Him means to use His methods, do the things which He did, and express His doctrine in acts.

"Going in" means entering into the rest of the sheepfold through the forgiveness of sins and the knowledge of being a child of God, and entering the rest of the perfect sacrifice of Calvary,(Heb 4). The Lord spoke about this invitation saying, "Come that they may have life, and have it abundantly", (John 10:10).

When the Lord added that His sheep "go in and out and find pasture", He was indicating that His sheep are active in the heavenly places. After all, this is where His sheep receive their spiritual food and drink the water of life. It is in the unseen kingdom where they are filled with the Holy Spirit and are kept safe by the Lord from the enemy, the thief and robber who always desires to kill and destroy them.

While all the sheep in the fold have life, only those who follow the Good Shepherd have it abundantly. As Revelation says, "for the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and He will guide them to springs of living water; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes", (7:14).

 2012/7/27 18:36Profile





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