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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 By what authority?

When Mark Jacobson aka Jake aka Bubbaguy first joined us on Sermonindex I almost left. Not because of Jake but because of the reaction I got when I opposed Jake. To some, I was unkind and uncaring and not exhibiting a Christian spirit in that I was not welcoming to a brother. There may still be some who feel similar, and wonder why I resist his posts with such determination. Well it all has to do with 'authority'. In fact the most important discussions in Christianity always have to do with authority.

The chief priests and elders challenged Christ with the words of the title of this thread in Matthew 21. They knew that the vital question had to do with authority. The centurion whose faith Christ commended recognised that Christ was working under authority, and received a greatest commendation; I have not seen this kind of faith in Israel. (Luke 7) Faith is obeying or putting our trust in authority.

And yet all Christians know that God gives them insights by micro-revelations of truth, and that a mere slavish adherence to 'facts' is not biblical Christianity. The body without the Spirit is dead; so is the scripture. How do we balance these truths?

I have applied for permission to quote extensively from an excellent book written for people who have begun to think about their faith. Know the Truth written by Bruce Milne. In this concise handbook Bruce Milne summarizes in masterly fashion what the Bible teaches in the major areas of Christian doctrine (the Bible, God, humanity, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the church and the last things). He explains the historical understanding of these truths from the early church to the present, highlighting denominational and theological differences where appropriate. In addition, he offers for each doctrine a thorough listing of Scripture passages, questions to stimulate further reflection and study, and a bibliography. If you buy it from this link sermonindex will get a cut.

It really is an excellent start for people who are beginning to think about their faith. Very accessible to the newest 'thinker'. If I get permission to quote I will post some of the main points here and try to expand them. Watch this space! or better still, start thinking and asking the questions now.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/2/17 4:00Profile









 Re: By what authority?

Amen... I'm with ya bro. I've had my "confrontations" w/ this person you speak of both privately and publicly. I love this person, and pray God opens his eyes to the MANY falicies of his arguments.

Krispy

 2005/2/17 8:07
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: By what authority?

Just to add some historicity and clarity.

Indeed this is true and again brings opportunity to advance the suggestion of mining back through the earlier postings from the old stalwarts around here.

Lest anyone be mistaken about [i][b]intent[/i][/b] of these matters, of 'naming of names' and so forth. To malign needlessly, to tear down or to exalt one above another here is [i][b]not[/i][/b] the point nor the spirit of those who follow the Lord out of a pure heart. That is not to say that we all hold to this in perfection. That is not to say that will not happen as we become agitated over deeply held or felt convictions.

But we ought to be quick to forgive and ask for forgiveness when we do fail. And we ought to not shy away from exposing error when it is found.
Nor is 'naming of names' inappropriate if we are to try and lessen the affront to those who are being mislead by couching it into a generality.

It is inappropriate if it is but to cause division
and stems from some fleshly desire to exalt ourselves.

This doesn't make any of us higher in the chain of knowledge in the respect to persons, it's a level field at the foot of the cross.

A related thread if you are interested in past history (It's quite a volume!)

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=928&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Evolution proof?[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/2/17 10:45Profile
Angyl
Member



Joined: 2005/1/26
Posts: 153


 Re:

Wow...quite a volume is right! I generally love evolution/creation threads but I took one look at that one and almost wet my pants...

8-)

 2005/2/17 11:06Profile









 Re:


crsscheck: thanks for putting up the evolution proof link.

ron: Authority comes from the Holy Spirit, here in the present. As the SI lead thesolonians quote says: "test everything, hold onto the good." The authority of Scriptures, then, needs to be tested against our experiences with the Holy Ghost in the present. From your perspective the literal Scriptures hold more weight. My perspective is that we should look to both, but that the Holy Spirit of Christ in the present should hold sway over ancient texts that have been reinterpreted and translated through several languages over thousands of years. Scripture is vitally important, but the end authority remains with Jesus' presence here today in the form of the Spirit.

bubbaguy

 2005/2/17 11:38
TheophilusMD
Member



Joined: 2003/12/1
Posts: 124
New Jersey

 Re: On dangerous grounds

Quote:
The authority of Scriptures, then, needs to be tested against our experiences with the Holy Ghost in the present.



Jake,

This is not only a false statement but quite dangerous as well. This statement actually makes the person the final authority and places him in a position to be the judge of what is right and what is wrong.

1. Scripture validates our experience and not the other way around.

2. We know who the Holy Spirit is because of the revelation of God's word. The discernment and certainty that the Holy Ghost is present is due to that revelation from the word. If not then the person's experience has become the final authority of what is true and what is not. That problem goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden.

3. If a person rejects a part of scripture and accepts some, he has placed himself above the word of God. Man's difficulty in understanding scriptures doesn't invalidate its truthfulness. Neither is its seeming contradictions.

4. Scripture is absolute in its authority. It is inerrant and infallible. The fact that the bible has been interpreted a thousand times cannot nullify its inherent authority.

I know you don't agree with the above but your (or my) denial or approval doesn't nullify the authority of God's word either. It stands forever. I thank God that He doesn't make mistakes, cannot contradict Himself and can never tell a lie.

In Christ,
Rey


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Rey O.

 2005/2/17 12:28Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The authority of Scriptures, then, needs to be tested against our experiences with the Holy Ghost in the present.



Even tho they will never admit it... this is what most in the WOF movement do. This is a recipe for very serious error. We see it everywhere today.

Krispy

 2005/2/17 13:29









 Re:

Rey, I appreciate your point of view. Yet, what you say in point three is not right.

3. If a person rejects a part of scripture and accepts some, he has placed himself above the word of God. Man's difficulty in understanding scriptures doesn't invalidate its truthfulness. Neither is its seeming contradictions.

God gave us intellegence and reasoning and spiritual awareness. If something seems wrong and you examine it in the Light, and it still seems wrong, then it would be a sin against God to ignore it. God gave us intelligence and reasoning abilities for good purpose.

I fear that believing Christians can be led astray through the literal interpretation of the Bible, while ignoring the presence of the Holy Spirit. For example. Many people believing in the near time return of Christ and the imminent end of times are likely to make irrational decisions that negatively affect others. SUch as ignoring environmental pollution that threatens the earth God gave us and seriously injures people and creatures (or wipes them out entirely) This is a sin against God and others caused by a false belief that comes out of Biblical fundamentalism.

Bubbaguy

 2005/2/17 13:37









 Re:

Quote:
I fear that believing Christians can be led astray through the literal interpretation of the Bible, while ignoring the presence of the Holy Spirit. For example. Many people believing in the near time return of Christ and the imminent end of times are likely to make irrational decisions that negatively affect others. SUch as ignoring environmental pollution that threatens the earth God gave us and seriously injures people and creatures (or wipes them out entirely) This is a sin against God and others caused by a false belief that comes out of Biblical fundamentalism.



You're [b]really[/b] reaching with that one. I don't know any believer who fits that description. So us some hard evidence of what you're talking about.

Krispy

 2005/2/17 14:47
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Jake writes:
I fear that believing Christians can be led astray through the literal interpretation of the Bible, while ignoring the presence of the Holy Spirit. For example. Many people believing in the near time return of Christ and the imminent end of times are likely to make irrational decisions that negatively affect others.


Fear often distorts judgment. (Gal 2:12) The possibility of people misusing truth is no reason to reject the truth they are misusing.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/2/17 14:54Profile





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