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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : ABORTION! Do we really murder?

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 Re:

"While the world was watching the slick, precision bombings on TV (of the first Iraqui war), and feeling relieved by the removal of unwanted life, how many were thinking about the unfortunate victims of death and suffering.

It could be argued that if war measures are a tragic necessity for the sake of one's well-being, then those who opt for abortion have a justification too: the preservation of their well-being - as they see it.

How is one act of killing heroic and another murderous? ."..Roadsign...

I was very convicted when I read your post, Roadsign...thank-you. I was soaked in military Pride when American might slaughtered so many in that war; like a Lion swatting a Mouse, and then roaring of it's Mighty Power.

And yes....Often having a baby is the end of life as a woman knows it, and the end of her youthful freedom, so, she chooses ME; self #1.

As far as war being murder or killing; it is not murder. The Earthly father, prophet and king David killed Goliath, and Hitler did arise in power, and would have devoured the World if left unchecked. He had to be killed, so to speak. That is the way the world has always been, ever since Abel; sadly.

The commandment is: "YOU SHALL NOT MURDER!"...AND ALSO HE COMMANDED EXECUTION....and the sentence of death for several things.

 2012/8/12 11:47
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re:

Tom, don't know of what poem you are referring, but I do find it exciting that you have mentioned dreams and visions. My oldest daughter is courting and the man she is fond of is a dreamer in the spiritual sense. Something I have not been exposed to in the past. The dreams and visions of our youths is so inspiring and isn't it just like God to place things in our hearts that are bigger than ourselves that result in awe and wonder. He gives us what is sufficient to make it to the next day but when it comes to our meditations on Him, we will always be given more than we can handle.

 2012/8/12 11:59Profile









 Covet God?

"Tom, don't know of what poem you are referring, but I do find it exciting that you have mentioned dreams and visions.".....lylewise

Lylewise: I got a partial picture of your post; there was no post, but a blank page..and your "motto signature", a poem, was all that was there. which I assumed you submitted in RE: to my post.

"He gives us what is sufficient to make it to the next day but when it comes to our meditations on Him, we will always be given more than we can handle. "

This is very wise and insightful Lyle, and reflects the idea of how an Infinite God lovingly woos finite children to know Him, and Ultimately to fellowship Him, eventually, even in fullness. We seek Him more diligently when we realize that there is more....a lot more, and after we taste that God is Good, we covet Him.

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

 2012/8/12 13:00
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Covet God?

Roadsign asked:

Quote:
How is one act of killing heroic[war] and another murderous [abortion]?

.
Brothertom responded:
Quote:
I was very convicted when I read your post, Roadsign...thank-you. I was soaked in military Pride when American might slaughtered so many in that war; like a Lion swatting a Mouse, and then roaring of it's Mighty Power.


I appreciate your testimony. No doubt you were “soaked in military pride” and saw war as heroic rather than murderous because of the programming you received by your society. You were given the “winner’s” perspective not the losers. Note that when it comes to speaking against abortion it’s the other way around: We see it from the victim’s perspective and easily overlook the societal programming.

Profilers and “just war” proponents alike justify killing for the sake of a higher ideal - as they see it.

Quote:
As far as war being murder or killing; it is not murder.

I am not convinced that this will fly far - arguing that abortion is murder but war is not. How can we be adamantly black and white on one ethical ground and grey on the other? In either theater - the operating theater or the war zone people may indeed be aiming to protect the perceived well-being of the "Mother" (the woman or the nation). Yet in either theater God’s better way is rejected. Both war and abortion are default strategies to eliminate a perceived threat to self-preservation. Both are fear-driven – not faith-driven. Yet, both are easily idealized and justified.
Quote:
The Earthly father, prophet and king David killed Goliath, and Hitler did arise in power, and would have devoured the World if left unchecked. He had to be killed, so to speak.


Of course David did not really kill Goliath: GOD DID! And the classic “Hitler” argument is hardly sufficient grounds for claiming that war is not murder ……. while abortion is.

My point is this: While true, the claim that abortion is murder, in itself, will not fly far in view of the many other factors operating in society. Also, if murder becomes the number one ethical concern, then the most serious sin of all may get overlooked: unbelief - the rejection of God’s redemptive grace – not only by those directly involved – but by the countless who are indirectly accountable.

Wouldn't you agree?

Diane


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Diane

 2012/8/12 14:33Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Still I believe that measures like billboards are not effective enough in penetrating the collective conscience of our society... my aim in the matter is to bring the redemptive hope and promises in those people God puts across my path. I don’t feel called merely to attempt to change social conscience or legislation.



Last week a friend and I visited a wonderful non profit organization in Akron Ohio called ICU Mobile. They see their mission is to simply offer free clinical ultrasounds to a pregnant mother, and her family members. They avoid all political and denominational affiliations, and they do not use provocative or coercive tactics.

ICU (I see you) Mobile achieves this goal by designing and building first rate mobile ultrasound clinics, and then delivering these systems to Pregnancy Crisis or Resource Centers around the world at a considerable savings. The PRC's who purchase a mobile agree to become affiliates who share their non combative vision for these young mothers. The strategy works because it allows the PRC staff to go to where they are needed most. The hi-tech state of the art mobile can park in store lots or neighborhood streets, and offers a community service without making a political statement.

By joining the ICU Mobile, the normally independent PRC now becomes part of a growing organization that shares useful metrics and increases effectiveness. They also share in the lives of thousands of children being born, who might very well not have been.

For many young mothers, the power of simply seeing their own child in their womb lets them discover that they have love to overcome their fear, and purpose to overcome their confusion.

I was genuinely moved by the technical, organizational, medical, and spiritual vision of this ICU Mobile, and commend them to any Pregnancy Resource Center looking to increase their effectiveness in assisting young mothers facing a lonely and frightening crisis.

http://icumobile.org/site/

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2012/8/12 14:53Profile









 Murder or killing. It can be different.

"The Earthly father, prophet and king David killed Goliath, and Hitler did arise in power, and would have devoured the World if left unchecked. He had to be killed, so to speak."...Brothertom


"Of course David did not really kill Goliath: GOD DID! And the classic “Hitler” argument is hardly sufficient grounds for claiming that war is not murder ……. while abortion is." Diane

Well, with that logic, that God killed Goliath, not David, and that war is murder anyway and not just killing, Who are you to say that the allied armies were just tools in God's hands as David was?

So in Judicial execution of a felon in old Israel, such as the discover of a bonafide witch in the congregation, who murders her? God by command. or the Priest with the axe?

Moral law and the execution of it is not murder, anymore than martial acts of warfare; it is different.

Murder is the commandment, THOU SHALL NOT!,while Divinely appointed and lawful execution is not, it is killing, terminating the life of the offender; it is not murder.

Did the unwed 13 year old girl realize that she was committing murder when she did? No! probably not at all, and the same with perhaps 99% of the women who choose to abort their children....But.....that does not mean that it did not happen, or that God did not see it that way.

Would I use this truth to hammer a scared or selfish young girl contemplating it? Maybe, if I felt led, but I hope gentleness and love would shine though a little.

I was touched by Compton's post about the ICU program. When those girls see their baby, they know it's more than a "fetus thing", and they know to kill it, is to murder their own, and the buckle right back into a good God-given moral choice. [ "I ain't killin' MY baby!" ]

 2012/8/12 15:49
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

MC wrote:For many young mothers, the power of simply seeing their own child in their womb lets them discover that they have love to overcome their fear, and purpose to overcome their confusion.
_______________________________

When I was sixteen I found out I was pregnant. I was so freaked out. I did not know what I was going to do. I decided on getting an abortion and my boyfriend(now hubby) at the time agreed. My dad wanted it, my friends had all already had one, some had two, so I thought this is the best thing to do, its no big deal...then GOD sent some people into my life to share with me. They were not protesters, they weren't standing outside clinics or holding signs, they were just people who spoke to me honestly. One was a nurse who shared about her own abortion experience, she was so sincere, and she spoke of how it still haunted her years later that she had killed her baby. She talked about how every year around the time her child would have been born she suffered deep guilt and great loss.Twenty nine years later and I still remember her, and the things that she said, I also remember the very real sadness in her eyes as she spoke. The next person GOD sent to me was my sister, she just asked me if I really understood what an abortion was, what was really going to happen...of course I didn't know, so she shared with me what it meant to have an abortion, how this little person inside of me was going to have their life come to an end. There was no judgement just a simple question she asked me to think long and hard about, "could I live with myself knowing I had killed that baby?" The last person GOD used to stop me from having an abortion was my baby, one morning I was so sick, I was miserable.(morning sickness) I found myself clutching my stomach and just talking to my baby, I was just talking to this person that in that moment I knew existed. She wasn't a blob of tissue, she wasn't a mass, she was a person and I couldn't do it. I couldn't further sin by harming another because of my own immature, stupid sinful decision. GOD saved me that day, HE saved my darling daughter, HE saved my two beautiful grandchildren and my husband will tell you that HE saved him too :)

Sometimes if the mothers heart is soft and open there is a real opportunity to share with them the love of CHRIST in such a way as to make a real difference.

God Bless
mj

 2012/8/12 16:01Profile









 Grace of God given to the chief of sinners! U2?

Wow! MJ. One magnificent testimony. I say write that out as a tract, and just give it away. It is powerful.

I also thought of your testimony being given in High-school gyms, promoting sexual purity until marriage; the whys and why nots, tenderly explained by one who knows! and knows God.

I rejoiced, and wept a little bit too, to see God's grace in your life, and your husband too. He seems like a real keeper!

 2012/8/12 17:08
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Grace of God given to the chief of sinners! U2?

Quote:
The last person GOD used to stop me from having an abortion was my baby, one morning... I was just talking to this person...that moment I knew existed.



Thank you for your beautifully expressed testimony MaryJane. Brothertom said it well, "I rejoiced, and wept a little too.."

MC


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Mike Compton

 2012/8/12 17:36Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
I was so sick, I was miserable.(morning sickness) I found myself clutching my stomach and just talking to my baby, I was just talking to this person that in that moment I knew existed.



This is amazing! After reading this, I realized that everything I have said here so far is a good as wood, hay and stubble. It is clear that no amount of moral persuasion can succeed as well as the power of human bonding when it is ignited – even in misery. And then it is far more difficult for destructive influences to win out – like abortion.

Another thought: Before the days of legalized abortion, mothers who became pregnant out of wedlock endured horrendous shame – even by the church. She was sent away. Her baby was, after all, a visual symbol of sin, a product of immorality. How diabolic – that the most vulnerable humans of society so easily tend to be the victims of Satan’s destructive wish for humanity. Surely the best weapon is love – God’s love reflected by his people towards mothers-to-be. She is, after all, the one who must primarily bear the responsibility.

Diane



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Diane

 2012/8/12 20:51Profile





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