SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : ABORTION! Do we really murder?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re:

If one is guilty of murder just by their thoughts, I shudder to think of those who have made it an art.

 2012/8/11 11:04Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
If one is guilty of murder just by their thoughts, I shudder to think of those who have made it an art.


Art???? Are you referring to those who draw illustrations or submit photography related to abortions for medical reports/journals/text books, etc? I can agree that seeing pictures of aborted fetuses and their parts would make one shudder - and more so for those who make a living doing medical illustrations.

But how does that relate to the redemptive/emotional/physical, relational needs of mothers who choose or consider abortion?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2012/8/11 12:45Profile









 Re: The Ferrari the devil drives; It's an art form.

I think by "Art Form", we are referring to the machine like organization and slickness; like a Ferrari is an art form,the precision in which it operates; By running pregnant mothers through the mills, with regularity and speed, all with their consent. Consider this lady:.........

"Carol Everett entered the abortion industry in Texas during the 1970's. Prior to this, she herself underwent an abortion under pressure from her husband and doctor. This event had a devastating effect on her family and emotional life.

She entered the abortion industry reluctantly at first by working with a partner who directed four abortion clinics. Under the guise of offering sexual counseling, she would direct women to their offices in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area. Later, she took over the direct oversight of these clinics and increased their killings from 200 to 800 per month.

Finally, due to the lucrative nature of the business, she left and set up several clinics of her own and earned approximately $150,000.00 a year. At the time she quit, she was overseeing the death of about 550 babies per month."

About 22 murders a working day....550 children per month; ONE PERSON.

Here is a testimony about the creation of the "art Form";' a slick,. finely tuned murder factory.....

We had three doctors working on Saturday, and on a coupon system, they attached a coupon to a chart. The charts were kept in a central area. And when one of the rooms was available, that doctor's assistant would pull out a chart and take it in there. When the doctor came to the door, when the girl was ready for the abortion, he would go in take the coupon off the chart, fold it, and put it in his pocket.

At the end of the day he would take his little coupons up and redeem them for the number of abortions he had done...

In our clinic a doctor could easily make $1,500.00 on a Saturday. We charged $750.00 for what I call a third trimester abortion. And the doctor got $250.00 of that. So we would have doctors scheduling abortions at 7:00 in the morning, 11:00 at night, if they could get me to do it in the clinic. And needless to say, because of my motivation, I would do it at any hour they wanted to.

We also did abortions seven days a week. Sunday was our most profitable day. It was the fastest day in and out. People just wanted to get their abortion and get out.

I've seen babies aborted -- we had one that was so big it wouldn't go down the disposal. We had one that was so big that it came out in two pieces. The head and a body. I sat down with a doctor not long ago and he told me that it was probably almost a term baby, simply because of what I could remember about it and specifics.

We can talk about injuries; we talk about things that happen inside abortion clinics. There are probably more deaths in the nation than we will ever know, because when someone dies inside an abortion clinic, the person who brought her in doesn't rush out and say, "Hey, I took her in for an abortion, and she died" -- i.e. she's dead and I'm responsible.

That doesn't happen. The parents don't say, "We took our daughter in for an abortion, and she died." When a girl dies from an abortion in an abortion clinic, the clinic has help in covering up, because the family does not want to stand up and take responsibility, and they don't want to face the press.

So there's really a cover up in our nation of the number of people who are aborted and who are able to get away with that. Doctors do not report it, and many cities do not require autopsies. So the truth is never known about that."....on and on and on...murder reigns .........___________


"God is merciful to us all, and He opened Carol's eyes to what she was doing. She turned from her sin and now faithfully serves Christ. She now lectures and fights in the battle against baby-killing."

http://www.reformed.org/webfiles/antithesis/index.html?mainframe=/webfiles/antithesis/v1n1/ant_v1n1_clinic.html




 2012/8/11 14:59
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: The Ferrari the devil drives; It's an art form.

Quote:
I think by "Art Form", we are referring to the machine like organization and slickness;



Okay, I get it. But alas: I’m having enough trouble accepting the label “artist” to refer to musicians – and horrible screechy "artists" at that …. never mind using the words "Art Form"to represent shrewd wickedness. Oh, Wows! What’s happening to our English language when “wicked” means lovely….. and a word for beauty means …… this atrocity! May our ESL guests here receive a heaping measure of understanding and patience with us!

Now about abortion – I’ve witnessed all this horrifying stuff in my obstetrics training. That was back in the 70’s! …. Clean procedures, charts, everything done so properly. The mother never sees her fetus – to avoid the risk of bonding or regret. … But back then it was quite private, and you needed a reason: “Mother with depression”. And there was a committee who reviewed each case. Today that is not so.

Still, I believe that measures like bill boards saying “Abortion stops a heartbeat” are not effective enough in penetrating the collective conscience of our society. And let’s admit, individual choices are largely shaped by societal values – (which I’ve already touched on).

Personally I come from an evangelical perspective –and that means, for me, that my aim in the matter is to bring the redemptive hope and promises in those people God puts across my path.

I don’t feel called merely to attempt to change social conscience or legislation. I know there are many already who are speaking up for the murderous evil of abortion. And that’s good.

Still, I wonder how many of those who participate in abortion have never heard any of the objections That certainly is not the case for the woman I spoke about in my last post.


Thoughts?

Diane



_________________
Diane

 2012/8/11 17:24Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
the machine like organization and slickness


If I did not know this thread context I would have thought by these words that we were discussing war. But really aren't we dealing with a similar moral issue: killing, and the same motive: self preservation.

While the world was watching the slick, precision bombings on TV (of the first Iraqui war), and feeling relieved by the removal of unwanted life, how many were thinking about the unfortunate victims of death and suffering.

It could be argued that if war measures are a tragic necessity for the sake of one's well-being, then those who opt for abortion have a justification too: the preservation of their well-being - as they see it.

How is one act of killing heroic and another murderous?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2012/8/11 17:52Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hi roadsign,

Good points.

I do wonder what changes the hearts of women in regard to abortion. I think that society -- particular leftist feminism -- has been thrust upon girls in society over the past few decades. Many claim to see abortion as nothing more than a medical procedure to remove "unwanted fetal tissue." I think that it is quite telling of the times in which we live.

While I was in college, I used to take a shortcut through the Human Biology building in order to get to work or go to the university's main SUB (Student Union Building). Many students would do the same since it was a shortcut to the cafeteria from a major academic area of the campus. Students would enter and exit through a foyer. However, one of the professors decided to decorate the hall with jars of "aborted fetuses" meant to show the various developmental stages of gestation.

If this professor meant for this to have a "positive" effect in regard to abortion "rights," he was wrong. The student body on campus was largely disgusted by this display. Students rallied against it. They called it the "wall of death" and complained that it caused them to lose their appetites on the way to the cafeteria. Ultimately, the display remained for quite some time and was then moved to a different display case elsewhere in the building. Still, I remember reading a letter to the editor of the school newspaper in which a student mentioned that it caused her to change her mind about abortion...and become an activist against it.

I have known women who defended abortion tirelessly -- mostly using the same excuses about "rape" or "incest" -- only to eventually reveal that they had had multiple abortions performed as nothing more than a form of birth control. More importantly, I was surprised by the psychological effect that more than one of these women admitted their abortions had caused. So, liberal feminist organizations often prefer to dehumanize unborn babies in a vain effort to relieve mothers from the guilt of killing them. It must be one of those terrible moments of realization and admission -- that a mother would choose to kill her child most often for no reason other than the selfishness of not wanting to change her lifestyle.

I think that this is one reason why Liberal organizations protested so vehemently against the Tim Tebow pro-life advertisement during the Super Bowl a couple of years ago. It places a "face" on an otherwise dehumanized procedure.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/8/11 17:54Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Chris, Thank you! It’s encouraging to see evidence of moral consciousness on the matter – and the surprising ways people can change their views.

Quote:
I do wonder what changes the hearts of women in regard to abortion. I think that society I think that it is quite telling of the times in which we live.



I suspect many who find themselves pregnant don’t go through any MAJOR changes at all, but merely reflect the inevitable outcome of well-embedded values and practices. I wrote a post earlier describing some of the societal factors. (I would love to hear your comments on that, Chris.) Actually, we could go back to the Industrial Revolution itself, even the Enlightenment – and consider how that shaped our society to where it is.

I believe we must try to grasp this bigger “handle”. Otherwise we are in danger of being like the Pharisees who pointed condemning fingers at the woman caught in adultery – without seeing a bigger picture (ex, the man) – including their own sin problem! No doubt their own condescending societal-shaped views towards sinners (women, Gentiles, defects) helped contribute to the problem - ie, their failure to fulfill the great commandment. Thankfully Jesus did not let the Pharisees use the woman (or himself) as a scapegoat.

Quote:
…. choose to kill her child most often for no reason other than the selfishness of not wanting to change her lifestyle



If you don’t mind, I am going to challenge this comment. It seems somewhat broad-sweeping and points squarely at the woman, as if she is an isolated entity with the full cognitive equipment to make the right choice - but becomes driven to kill simply because she is selfish and lazy. It may be that she is indeed desperate to preserve life – her own life. It may be that she sees herself as essentially dead if she surrenders her career opportunities, material securities, or her “freedom”. We cannot overlook the driving power of fear (which I describe elsewhere as the mighty giant in the land). Fear of death (including death of identity) is a very real and very powerful force within – even if it is subconscious.

Of course we too are conditioned by our culture -ex individualism - and tend to view people with an individualistic perspective. So in our mind we isolate out the woman caught in the act, without considering how she reflects the inevitable outcome of shaping by many other people who are also accountable in the sin problem.

From that perspective we see the great sin problem of humanity: “There is no difference for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God….” That is the launching point for hope: “…. and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus”. Rom. 3:24

Now that’s the gift of LIFE, the Living Water – which conquers all fear of death!




_________________
Diane

 2012/8/12 8:49Profile









 Where do the Aborted Babies go?

"So, liberal feminist organizations often prefer to dehumanize unborn babies in a vain effort to relieve mothers from the guilt of killing them. It must be one of those terrible moments of realization and admission -- that a mother would choose to kill her child most often for no reason other than the selfishness of not wanting to change her lifestyle."ccchhhrrriiisss

Exactly, Chris: Therein is the battle. The liberal, anti-Christ spirit is a war of ideas, you see. If the media, any media, [ Even the President of the United States! ] can barrage enough, and sell the ideas as truth, in such things as murderous abortion, or abominable sodomy as health and normal, then that God given conscience and conviction of right and wrong, CAN BE NUMBED TO BELIEVE THE LIE, AND ACT UPON IT!.

These atrocities are being driven down INTO THE MINDS OF OUR CHILDREN as truth, in our school systems, beginning in Grade one: Social Darwinism. It is traced to Mother Earth Worship; Man is simply an evolved entity derived from the soup, and just managed to ascend through the amoebas to the lizard stage, and then the squirrel like climber to the monkey to the man, male and female of course.

This is what devalues our sense of respect of Life. The Whale becomes equal to the man,[ GreenPeace ] or the Cattle, as it is in India,[ Hindu/Animism ] becomes uncle Wally.

God becomes that "soup" of what that Cosmos really is, and what really matters is that your short time here on Earth should be a happy time, and prosperous time, and relatively healthy.....and if not, well....just the way it is...accept it.

"It's just a blob, a mass, and not a person at all. It only becomes a baby-person when it is born, and after all, you don't need the trouble of having a baby, you know, after it is born of course; DO _YOU! You are too young and you have to much fun ahead of you, and who wants to date a mamma ? " "It's free, and no shame in it, and then you will be free!"...They convincingly urged her, so, she did.

The Lord gave me a word about that once, that dramatically changed my life, as to the relevance of it all. What happens to the aborted baby?

http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/2012/04/i-am-limitless-gods-word-to-innocent.html#comment-form

 2012/8/12 10:10
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re: Where do the Aborted Babies go?

Diane, Ginny, Tom. Etc.... I do appreciate your insight in this morbid and cultural indicting subject. To reverse Roe vs. Wade might get us closer to social correctness but morally man is awash in this sin. There can be no greater pride of life than for one to elevate self so highly, that other's lives become of little to no value. This is a great evidence of the Spirit of anti Christ working in humanity. I think to myself, even if the landmark decision as it is called were to be reversed, to what extent would people go to pursue the same outcome? (SELF). This is a sensitive subject no doubt, and I do not wish to be callused to those who have been partakers in this genocide of convenience, possibly myself even for my former life was very permiscuous, but Paul did not fail to Glorify God for the Change in his life that took him from the murderous zealot that he was to the servant of the Precious Savior. The murders were a part of his testimony as to how God can change a heart of granite.

 2012/8/12 11:08Profile









 Re:

I liked your poem Lylewise, but the truth of it could be pointed in many directions. Are you implying that we cannot solve the problem of Abortion in the flesh?; or having a "Mission/Crusade" type consciousness that is a false glory?...and by inquiry, subtly thinking about a political solution?

....Or replying to my vision I had?..[ at the end of the last post; and I am not offended if you were....]

Anyway; Neat poem.

 2012/8/12 11:30





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy