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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : When the Constitution “Hangs by a Thread” – The White Horse Prophecy in Modern Mormonism

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 Re:

Chris you do not understand that the church of the New Testament is a spiritual reality whose Kingdom is not of this world. Paul expounds this very thoroughly in Ephesians. The New Testament reflects a reality for believers that transcends this temporal realm. Believers are citizens of a another kingdom. The one Jesus said that is not of this world.

You fail to realize that believers are strangers and aliens in this world. We are bound for the heavenly city. The new Jerusalem that is above. The city if God. Our mandate is to reach the list and disciple hose who come to faith in Jesus Christ. Not vote in political elections.

Chris do you know who the Anabaptist were? Do you know who Pilgrim Marpek, Conrad Grebel, Michael Sattler, Memos Simon were? Have you heard of Martyrs Mirror? Do the research yourself and you will see that the Anabaptist considered themselves citizens of a heavenly Kingdom.

The Anabaptist Story by William Estepp, The Reformers and their Stepchildren and Anatomy of a Hybrid hy Leonatd Vetduin reflect the history and theology of the Anabaptist. Also a set of messages by Denny Kenniston on a history of the early Anabaptist reflect the mindset of another kingdom. Not a political utopias on earth.

Chris as I recall the Jews of Jesus day were looking for a temporal kingdom. They failed to see the spiritual nature of his kingdom that is not of this world. I am afraid that you and many American evangelicals are looking for a temporal millenium ruled by the the Republicans or the Tea Party.

Bro you need to focus on the kingdom of Jesus that is not of this world.

Bearmaster.

 2012/7/20 19:45
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi bearmaster,

Quote:

Chris you do not understand that the church.of the New Testament is a spiritual reality whose Kingdom is not if this world.

Paul expounds this very thouroughly in Ephesians. The New Testament reflects a reality for believers that transcends this temporal realm. Believers are citizens of a another kingdom. The one Jesus said that is not if this world.



You are making a declaration about what you think that I do or do not understand. As a believer, I understand that the Church belongs to a Kingdom that is not of this world. However, I also know that Jesus did not take us out of this world. Paul obviously belonged to the Kingdom of Heaven but this didn't stop him from invoking his earthly citizenship...at least twice.

Quote:

You fail to realize that believers are strangers and aliens in this world. We are bound for the heavenly city. The new Jerusalem that is above. The city if God. Our mandate is to reach the list and disciple hose who come to faith in Jesus Christ. Not vote in political elections.



Again, you are making a declaration about me that is in error. In other words, it is untrue. As a believer, I certainly realize that believers are strangers and aliens in this world. I also understand where I came from, where I am going and that I have a mandate to reach the lost and disciple others in Christ. However, you are assuming that I forfeit those things if I feel led to share a vote in the government of consent where God placed me. This is an incorrect assumption.

Quote:

Chris do you know who the Anabaptist were? Do you know who Pilgrim Marpek, Conrad Grebel, Michael Sattler, Memos Simon were? Have you heard of Martyrs Mirror? Do the research yourself and you will see that the Anabaptist considered themselves citizens of a heavenly Kingdom
The Anabaptist Story by William Estepp, The Reformers and theiir Stepchildren and Anatomy of a Hybrid hy Leonatd Vetduin reflect the history and theology of the Anabaptist. Also a set of messages by Denny Kenniston on a history of the early Anabaptist reflect thr mindset of another kingdom. Not a political utopias on earth.



Yes, I do know who the Anabaptists were. I also understand who they were not. They were not a denomination with a man-made hierarchy. Furthermore, I understand how the opinions of men splintered the Anabaptists over time into various sects. There are quite a few groups that trace their "ancestry" back to the group.

I cannot do that. Why? I wasn't led to the Lord by an Anabaptist, Amish, Baptist, Pentecostal or any other man. I came to Christ because I desperately hungered to know Him. I had been turned off to Christ by so many piously religious men who thought so highly of their power of deduction that they could pronounce their views as God's own thoughts on many, many matters. When I came to Christ, I stood all alone in a field with no one there except the Lord and me. The Lord didn't ask me my opinions on voting, Anabaptist theology or teaching, or any other form of documented, sectarian propriety. I simply poured out my life to the Lord as water...telling Him that I would trade all that I was and everything that I would ever be if I could just know Him and be His friend.

In terms of Anabaptists: I didn't ask about the men that you mentioned. Those were just a few men. I was asking about the statement that you made that "early" Anabaptists "had it right when they refused to be a part of the state." You can read stories, biographies and biographical sketches of each one of those men. However, it does not mean that ALL of the Anabaptists believed as such.

Remember: The "Anabaptist" term was an informal term that the world applied to individuals who did not submit to the major denominations in this world. The Catholic-inspired religions believed in sprinkling and other doctrines that were in opposition to the Word of God. So, those who felt the need to be "re-baptized" were considered "ana-baptist" ("re-baptized"). Since early "anabaptists" were loosely affiliated in terms of specific doctrines, it would be incorrect to assume that they all believed the same things on every last issue.

And, of course, I know people who claim to be modern Anabaptists who embrace the "old Anabaptist ways." One of them refuses to be involved in any legal or court issue...which wouldn't quite have fit the example used by Paul or the persistent widow. Still, I asked because you were mentioning the beliefs of the Anabaptist as if they were universally agreed upon. And, of course, a "government of consent" did not exist in the time of the Anabaptist, so a comparison or contrast is a difficult one to make anyway.

Quote:

Chris as I recall the Jews of Jesus day were looking for a temporal kingdom. They failed to see the spiritual nature of his kingdom that is not of this world. I am afraid that you and many American evangelicals are looking for a temporal millenium ruled by the the Republicans or the Tea Party.



Well, let me relieve you from your fears. I do not believe in any sort of "millenium ruled by the Republicans or the Tea Party." I do not believe that we can legislate Christ. As a believer, I spend my life seeking the face of the Lord. The same can be said of many, many believers who feel the liberty to vote in America. I don't know anyone who think that Republicans, Conservatives or Tea Party ideals can bring the salvation of America or resolve spiritual issues. Like all believers, we know that Jesus is the only answer to the question that so few are willing to ask.

So, I hope that this answers or refutes any inclination about what I or many other believers who vote actually feel on the matter. I also hope that this clarity will prevent any future assumptions to be publicly made about us.

Quote:

Bro you need to focus on the kingdom of Jesus that is not of this world.



I do hope that this isn't another assumption. Brother, I do focus -- all of my time -- upon the kingdom of Jesus Christ. I know many believers, including those who vote, who feel the same way. Our eyes are upon Jesus and our ears are attuned to His Word. We aren't the "worldly" people that some have suggested. Brother, I eat, drink and sleep with the Lord on my mind. I speak to the Lord constantly and my mind is "stayed" upon Him! I am strongly aware that I do not belong in this world...and that I am just passing through. At the same time, I work in this world.

I pay my taxes. I provide for my wife. I mow the lawn. I get the oil changed in my car (even though I pray that it is always oiled). I go grocery shopping. I pay my bills. Yet, these things do not make me "unspiritual." When I pay my bills, or change my truck's oil, or mow the lawn, or work, or eat, or pay my taxes, or vote -- I do so in a constant prayerful way. Like the old Keith Green song ("Song for Josiah"), "the Lord I am always remembering."

Like I said, I will be praying about all of these things...just like I do every election. I pray that my heart is pure before the Lord in such matters too. I only desire to be pleasing in His sight and to never act in contrary to His will. I pray constantly that my steps are ordered of God and my path is made straight. I even appreciate honest suggestions about all such matters. Yet, I will follow the Lord in this. I hope that you can understand it. I am not an unbeliever or an "anything goes" Christian. I am a sincere child of God who desperately longs for Him and who finds that the greatest moments of my life are spent alone with Him in my prayer closet.

I do hope that this makes some sense and gives you an idea of who I am, brother.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/7/20 20:19Profile









 Re:

I will re-iterate brother, if the shoe fits then you must wear it, therefore judge yourself brother. Wisdom is justifed by all her children..........bro Frank

 2012/7/20 20:27
noone
Member



Joined: 2008/3/17
Posts: 75
United States

 Re:

Just wondering if the ones who have replied to this thread about not voting for Romney or not voting at all this year have ever voted in the past for a presidential candidate or other office? And if you have voted did you vote for the truly born again, God fearing, spirit filled, repentant candidate?


_________________
Tina

 2012/7/21 1:33Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Brother Frank,

Quote:

I will re-iterate brother, if the shoe fits then you must wear it, therefore judge yourself brother. Wisdom is justifed by all her children..........bro Frank



Just to relieve your concerns: The shoes that you suggest are not found in my closet. If you don't believe me, I will gladly let you walk a mile or two in them.

Also, I would like to make the public suggestion that we, as fellow believers, aren't given the authority to make far-reaching, public assumptions about the spiritual "eyes/ears" of others or public assumptions of the "children" of the wisdom that we seek from God.

In this case, we must simply trust God first...and trust that those who love Him will seek the Lord on such matters. If we don't agree, we shouldn't assume the worst or make a public indictment about those who arrived to a different opinion.

May the Lord guide us in all of His ways.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/7/21 1:43Profile









 Re:

No doubt, Mitt Romney will be elected. Those who follow the Lamb will pay a terrible price. But persecution is God's refining fire. Mitt Romney could be God's instrument to purify his bride in America.

Lord may your will be done. May your bride be purified through the fires of persecution.

Bearmaster.

 2012/7/21 6:46









 Re:

Chris, you were asked to judge yourself brother. Most of Christendom lies aseep, and your suggestion is that no one tries and wakes them up to what is approaching because somehow you feel personaly slighted? Hmmm. Again brother, if the shoe does not fit, then move on brother rather than attempting to silence people and mute what they are saying. The white horse prophecy is a warning to folks to consider what kind of cult they would be voting for when they vote for a high ranking member of that said cult. It is obvious that you do not like that assertion, well brother, duly noted. To the others, I would certainly heed this post by brother Greg, it is a timely warning. Chris, perhaps instead of attacking this thread, you could start a thread defending cults against false charges? ............bro Frank

 2012/7/21 9:20









 Re: The Deception to Many Evangelucaks

2 Cor. 11:3

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

2 Cor. 11:14-15

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising then his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

____________________________________________________________

How best to deceive the Christians in America? Give them a secular humanist such as the current president. The Christians retaliate in horror. A man who supports abortion and homosexual rights will put the church on guard. Satan will not be that obvious.

So put forth a candidate who is conservative. One who supports moral values. One who is very religious. Oops, did I add the man is in a satanic cult? He is a Mormon. Well, minor fact. Can overlook that. After all not voting for a pastor. Voting fora President. Besides Romney is a moral, upright man.

Interesting that it was the moral upright men who put Jesus to death. Those who were deemed the moral majority, the Christian right of their day. Those whom Jesus said were of tbeir father the devil. This Will be the man who will occupy the White House. And no not the incumbent

Many will be deceived thinking Romney will lead them out of despair into paradise. But saints beware. If you think Obama was bad. Romney will be worse. His evil will not compare with that of his predecessor. Those camps that some have scoffed at will go active. His death squads will hunt the remnant down and execute them.

Look do you think Art Katz and Denny Kenniston were blowing hot air when they spoke of persecution? Do you think the upcoming Sermon Index conference is a joke? We believe persecution is coming. But where will it come from? The answer. Satan of course. His instrument. I believe Romney. For this man represents the antichrist to come.

Saints take heed. The ride is going to get interesting and rough. While there is still time get close to Jesus. For after January next year it will be too late. I echo what a few have said. Come out of Babylon. Please. Come out of Babylon to Jesus.

Posted by Bearmaster. .
.

 2012/7/21 11:07
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Frank,

Yes, you asked me to judge myself...but only after you made an assumption about "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" what you think is correct in this matter.

But, again, let me assure you: I do judge myself. As a believer, I am constantly searching and judging myself (and only after asking the Lord to do this) in my attempt to be more like Him and pleasing in His sight.

I do think that it is a shame when you jump into a discussion, declare your opinion (but not as an opinion) and then subtly suggest that those who disagree lack "eyes to see" and "ears to hear." This is on top of other comments in these sort of discussions in which the faith of those who disagree with a particular perspective if scrutinized. Then, you wonder why someone -- whether myself or others -- would feel "personally slighted" by it. I do find it somewhat insulting...even if I am not personally offended by it.

I understand how many of the brethren here -- from many different backgrounds -- think and present their "sides" of a discussion. I do attempt avoid saying things that would in any way infer that I have "arrived" (or attribute an opinion to having been given by God) to a stronger sense of correct Biblical or spiritual views on this or other similar matters.

I apologize if this isn't more apparent. Like many, I often slip into conflict in some of these discussions, but I think that it is typically when I see public declarations that aren't exactly agreed upon by all believers or when something is declared that might not be the wisest choices of words.

In this case, some brethren have repeated something that they read/heard about a "white horse prophecy." Without citing any source upon which they base their claim, they have declared that this is more than just a myth, a motivation of Mormons and, perhaps, somehow a motivation of one of the presidential candidates.

In the context of this discussion (which has been discussed previously here at SermonIndex): I have never defended the Mormon cult. I believe that Mormonism is NOT part of the true Christian faith with doctrines that were either conjured in the minds of men or from the evil one. The Mormon religion is just as poisonous as the Catholic, Liberation Theology, Jehovah's Witness and other religions that add or take away from the essential Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yet, the fallacy of the Mormon religion is not the issue in this particular discussion. It is whether or not the "white horse prophecy" is an actual thing that Mormons believe. If it is, then it is something that believers should consider in terms of apologetic evaluation and discernment. However, if it is NOT true (or true in the way that it is presented), than those who declare it as such are guilty of lying about a cult.

Now, you can claim that I am "defending a cult against false charges." That is quite a bold claim...but I suspect that reasonable individuals would understand that my motivation is purity of speech. Since I didn't bring it up or declare this thing in the first place, my "gripe" (so to speak) is with the spreading of a rumor. Yes, even the lost and dying in this world can be lied about.

I am simply trying to caution individuals -- sincere believers -- from lying or spreading a rumor as if it were true. That is all.

As I said, I abhor the Mormon religion. I believe that it is a deceptive cult (like many other deceptive cults). Despite the suggestion, I wouldn't vote for Mitt Romney based upon his Mormon religious views -- although I might vote for him despite it.

However, this is about the need to avoid lying or spreading what could be a rumor based upon a lie (even about a non-Christian cult) in an effort to prove a point. It is important in the context of this discussion because that rumor is what the initial article is about. Those who spread it cannot seem to validate it...and don't seem concerned to do so. It has been publicly rejected by the very people who the rumor says believe it. Instead of acknowledging that, the rumor spreaders or those who embrace it now suggest that those individuals are lying (still, without any proof).

As believers, we should make every attempt to be pure in our speech -- even with our claims, arguments or efforts to share an opinion. We don't have to spread, repeat or rely upon unsubstantiated myths...and we should never declare them as true less we find ourselves guilty of lying.

AS for your suggestion: I think that the caution that I urged "fit" in the context of this thread. However, I have thought about creating a thread about the danger of lying...even if we do it for Jesus. There have been many discussions here on SermonIndex where rumor and myth is presented as truth. Often, it is not identified as merely a myth or rumor. As believers seeking to "judge ourselves," we desperately need to avoid profane and unholy speech. Lying or spreading unsubstantiated rumors as if they were true -- even about a non-Christian cult -- is still a sin.

I think that the words of James chapter 3 are fitting here:

Quote:

JAMES 3:1-18

1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.

4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.

5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:

8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.



May God help us all as we attempt to be pure of speech. Since that speech is a reflection of our hearts, may the Lord purify our hearts and refine our thoughts and motives according to His Word.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/7/21 12:50Profile









 Re:

Hi Chris,

It is strange to me that at the possibility that you were slighted, you go to great lengths to defend yourself and about the importance of truth and then you say that the original poster is lying and spreading rumor. The original post laid it out very well, but you say........

"AS for your suggestion: I think that the caution that I urged "fit" in the context of this thread. However, I have thought about creating a thread about the danger of lying...even if we do it for Jesus." Its not caution your urging, you are accusing others of lying and spreading rumors.

It seems that you have made a judgement call that someone is lying brother, you need to re-read the original post and point out who is lying. The context of this thread is the laying out of evidences of what the Mormons believe and the OP made an excellent case. Your sole refutation of the OP is that five years after announcing this prophecy publicly, the head of the Mormons then renounced it. That is your sole evidence to refute the OP, the words of the leader of a Satanic cult? Wow. As I said Chris, if you have any credible evidence to suggest that the OP is merely lies and rumors, you should present that rather than the ususal " I dont know anyone who believes that," that is not evidence.

Earlier Miccah suggested that he merely was disagreeing with you and presenting what the Lord had laid on his heart. Are you saying the Lord has told you something different? Are you saying that the Lord did not lay this on the brothers heart. You seem to have a very big problem anytime someone says " The Lord spoke to me." God does speak to His people, and He leads them and He guides them and He is very clearly laying it on the hearts of many saints about the dangers of having a Satanic cult leader as their leader. Now you would think that this would be obvious, but as I said before, we live in days of blindness and a sleeping church..............bro Frank

 2012/7/21 13:31





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