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Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: What is the point of prophecy?


Brother Ron you wrote;
"You see I would use the same language in saying that I believe the Lord has shown me that the 144000 are not literally the tribes of Israel. Where do we go from there"?


Ha! ... ha! ... Funny you should ask ... Our Lord woke me up this morning with this on my mind ... Take the Revelation one chapter at a time and post in "red" what i see as "symbolic" and in "green" what i see as literal, then we can discuss it from there ...

NOW IF YOU CAN JUST TELL ME HOW TO POST TEXT IN RED AND GREEN ...

i'm excited about this for this may be His taking me up again in The Revelation where He left me off so many years ago ... and if not still to Him be the glory ... i'll start as soon as i can!


You continued;
"There are only a few possibilities.
1. You are right and I am wrong
2. I am right and you are wrong
3. We are both wrong.
there are no other options. It is not possible for us 'both to be right', so one or both of us is wrong".


Amen ... All of us to a greater or lesser tint are seeing thru our RayBans darkly ... So to be honest i don't even approach things like this anymore from the point of which human is right or wrong ... i approach it more now from the point that Holy Spirit is always right, and so in this discussion let's all rely on Him to clarify things to us, as much as it is allowed for us to know on this side of the last book ... So i'm open to Him if in discussion He shows me where i need to alter a former belief ... If we reach an empasse on a point, we just reach an empasse, and move on ...

The other thing that He's pointed out to me in my discussions on the Revelation is that in this dispensation of grace, this church age, those of us who are in fact saved, cannot add or take away from our salvation because we don't see eye to eye on the prophets ... So if even you and i, or anyone else, after an exhaustive discussion of The Revelation still see from our initial perspectives, so be it, we're still brothers in Christ, still in our Christian love one for the other, and when we meet on the other side we'll ALL know the same thing for a certainty ...

if God counts in not robbery to sit down and reason with us, i think it brings Him pleasure when we do it amongst one another, as long as it ends in continued brotherly love ...


You concluded;
"What is the difference between what you are doing and what Jake is doing"?

Brother Bub if you're reading this what i'm about to say to brother Ron is not meant to hurt you, but i think you're pretty well aware of what you do ...

Now come on brother Ron, "i'm not prone to coloring that far out of the lines" .... '0)

 2005/3/22 8:46Profile









 Re:

"i'm not prone to coloring that far out of the lines"

What lines? There's lines?

:)

You guys are a riot. But a nice one.

God be with you!

Jake (Bubbaguy)

PS Rahman, the process you describe in sussing out the meaning of the Revelation by waiting on the Holy Spirit is very much the same as what I have been doing with Genesis, as Ron duly notes. The difference is that I supplement this process with the research and writings of the scientific (paleo-archeology-ecology-anthropology) community.

 2005/3/22 10:12
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Caution in Who is speaking

Hardly feel qualified to utter this, so that it may be taken with the knowledge of one stumbling about...

For a very good reason there is a nudge (admonition?) towards letting all things be interpreted through the word of God. If there is anything that we have mastery over, it's fooling ourselves. Am highly suspect of most things uttered as something the Holy Spirit is telling me/us/you/them - that cannot be squared with scripture and that being all things that generate through our fallen minds, not that we bring our 'experiences' of what we think the Lord, by the Holy Spirit is saying and then finding whatever verses of scripture to buttress them but the opposite, that we "test" all things by the standard that is already in place. Gods thought.

Think it is very dangerous to be led by our 'experiences' of thought, that we have these things all figured out because the [i]Holy Spirit has shown me[/i]. As Ron pointed out, ultimately there is is a limited number of ultimate possibilities:

Quote:
What do you do when Godly men who wait upon God come to different conclusions on major aspects of interpretation? What is the difference between what you are doing and what Jake is doing? He would say the Holy Spirit has shown him that Genesis is to be interpreted as he interprets it.


Quote:
Christians have thought about this kind of thing for a long time and come up with certain rules of 'exegesis'; "what are the words saying?". Then we move on to 'exposition'; "what are they saying to us/me?"


This cannot be emphasized enough, in fact wondering if this could not be considered the root malady of where Christianity has lost it's moorings.

Doesn't it seem a bit odd that out of the thousands of years of recorded scripture there is what amounts to a handful of prophets and now they are everywhere and they are contradicting themselves into delusion.

That is not to imply that the Lord is not speaking, but certainly He is not contradicting Himself by what He is already said. The error always rest's with us and going back to sound exegesis is not some kooky theological construct for starchy old fundamentalists who don't know the leadings and prompting of the Holy Spirit, how could that be when it is He Himself who wrote the book;

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Perhaps more importantly is the verse prior:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture [u]is of any private interpretation.[/u]
There is hardly a day that goes by that I don't wonder if I spoke correctly around here, that thought of "I am off" here on this or that thing that is being discussed, that I need to reconsider because of something one of the Brethren here mentions that I had not paid attention to before, that will send me back to find out "[i]if these things are so[/i]" and even then, it is often with the same sense of WKIP. That constant learning experience.

Hope not to dissuade anyone as just as certainly the Lord will lead us differently through varying circumstances. It could go without saying that "seems" is a favorite word and not out of paranoia or 'lack of faith' but maybe it is because it got lodged in part, from the sense of what was stated here:

Act 15:28 For it [u]seemed[/u] good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Feel like I am putting myself into a predicament here. Don't want to make one verse stand on all fours and yet there is over and over again the exhortation throughout scripture to 'study', to 'test', to be 'taught,' 'we see through a glass darkly'...

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Could go on infinitely and surely other questions are already being anticipated, "but what about [i]this[/i] scripture?...

Sigh, the problem of being a layman and dealing with such lofty things like God's word. Seems we need some clearer definitions of original intent and meaning,
Quote:
"what are the words saying?".


And the original question asked "What is the [u]point[/u] of prophecy?" Maybe we haven't gone far enough back to the definitions of prophet and prophecy, it is my limited understanding that what was foretold by the prophets of old and the meaning behind:

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters [u]shall prophesy[/u], and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Are not one in the same thing. It seems that often times we are holding our opinions up as the standard to measure Gods word instead of measuring our opinions [i]by[/i] the word of God.

Feeling very disconnected and grieved over nothing and everything in particular lately and am hesitant to say anything, if the leadings of the Holy Spirit are at all in evidence within I have been in rebellion. It seems primarily the promptings are to keep my big mouth shut, so I can only attribute all this to a concern for being careful and prayerful about what 'we think' and how we measure that against what God has already said. Where that is generated from only God knows...

A part of it may be generated out this; [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5003&forum=48] Controversy or Concern? Ad for the UCC[/url]

Lastly, please excuse my folly and do correct my thinking, ignoring as always whatever is unnecessary... again, kind of out of sorts...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/3/22 10:54Profile









 Re: Caution in Who is speaking


Crosscheck:

I am definately hearing you on this as it is a source of tension in the religious society of friends. The Holy Spirit is available to us in the here and now. We know this because Christ promises this.

The Word (Bible) is the another source we have for learning about God.

The third source is our spiritual community. Not all of us experience God in the same way and in learning about others' experiences we see more of God in the world.

Contradictions among these are bound to happen. How do Quakers deal with this? Listen to the still, small voice inside, not your head or your ego. It doesn't lie.

Bub

 2005/3/22 11:12
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: What is the point of prophecy?


Brother Mike,

i hear what you're saying, and rest assured anything that i post i will post as what i understand to be, not that i'm a final authority on it, or know all about it ...

When i say i understand The Revelation i don't mean each and every part, case in point the meaning of the number 666 ... What i mean is that i catch the gist of, see the time line (not the time in which it will occur), and in my spirit catch some of it's definitions by other scriptures that come to mind ... Plus there are the points in both Daniel and the Revelation where God give the symbol, and then turns right around and gives us the literal meaning ... if this discussion takes off i know that i'm gonna learn things that i don't know right now, because it's gonna make us dig, and search, and pray, and seek ...

Let me give you an example of what i think will come out of such a discussion ... i remember just before i got saved a Baptist preacher was trying to scriptually get me to see that Holy Spirit too was God, and that God was in fact triune if i could but just see who Holy Spirit actuall is, and what He does ... My former JW blindness just couldn't see it ... Then in the midst of our conversation that preacher just stopped and blurted out something to the effect of, "Holy Spirit please remove the blinders from His eyes, and reveal to Him who you are" ... Then the preacher said, "Read the passage again" ... And amazingly, instantly it was like scales fell off my eyes, i saw Holy Spirit, i saw the Trinity of the Godhead, and of course i've not been the same since ...

i'm not out to convince ... i'm out to discuss ... and as i said if we come to an empasse on any point(s) we just move on ... for from my experience i know it's only Holy Spirit who can reveal the mysteries of God ...

Even the Spirit of God can only lead us horses to His water, but He can't make us drink ... That will not happen unless the thirst we have is a true thirst for His knowledge, and not our own ...

 2005/3/22 11:35Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: forgetting to add

Hi Rahman,

On the way to work it dawned on me that I may have forgotten that this was in general and not necessarly aimed specificly...

Fully understand and appreciate this shared sentiment:

Quote:
i'm not out to convince ... i'm out to discuss



Heard someone quoting I believe it was Aristotle the other day:

[i]"I cannot teach you anything, I can only try to make you think"[/i]

And I am glad [i]he[/i] said it, have a hard enough time thinking about what I may think about what I think...
I think :-?


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/3/22 12:14Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Contradictions among these are bound to happen. How do Quakers deal with this? Listen to the still, small voice inside, not your head or your ego. It doesn't lie.

And look where it has led them; Further and further away from the only authorititive standard.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/3/22 13:51Profile









 Re:

Ron, I hope you are not saying that people should ignore the Inner Light. That's cutting close to the B word.

Jake (Bubbaguy)

 2005/3/22 14:56
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Round and Round the Mulberry bush

Quote:

bubbaguy wrote:
I hope you are not saying that people should ignore the Inner Light.



I know you adressed this comment to Ron, but here is a scripture to ponder on in this regard:

The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. [b]If then the light within you is darkness,[/b] how great is that darkness.

This raises an interesting question, how does one know that the light within them is not darkness?


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/3/22 15:08Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Consider then the wonder of this continuing testimony; and my delights were

Jake
I've given up counting how many times you have accused me of coming close to the B word.

I am saying, and you know it, that if the 'inner light' is not in full conformity to the revealed Word of God, it is darkness, and a blasphemy to call it light. Yes, in case you missed it, I am saying that people should not only ignore but should consciously reject the 'inner light if it is not in full conformity to the Word of God.

Is that clear enough?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/3/22 16:28Profile





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