SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Dietrich Bonhoeffer's descent into a philosophical Hell.

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Dietrich Bonhoeffer's descent into a philosophical Hell.

An exhortation to Brothertom from Appolus about the heretical nature of the doctrines of Dietrich Boenhoeffer, and the faith in MORAL RELATIVISM, as the Christian message.

"Perhaps you could have started another thread, in fact you may want to start a thread and give a list of people that you consider to be heretical and in no way Christian. It may be your "Paulean stand," but others will be able to see where you are coming from and who you would consider heretics.
I know of two others at least who would be on your list as we have bumped heads on that before :)...Appolus

[ Madame Guyon, I presume, and a view of as to why? A.W. Tozer derived much his ideology from the Secular and Catholic mystics as orthodoxy.] I will address that later.

From BT:..Appolus:
In view of the clear and obvious ignorant response to the facts about Bonhoeffer's perverted faith, and your refusal to consider them, I have, as per your request, began this as a separate thread, so that some may consider this perverted idea of Moral Relativism, as being Christian, or as it is at it's roots.

It is much below the Christian realm, and even Satanic, in my view.

I have posted a very well done, World renown Documentary video, done by
MARTIN DOBLMEIER.
http://www.bonhoeffer.com/bon2.htm
Appolus said:
"If it were ever proven that Bonhoeffer helped in the conspiracy to kill Hitler, I would find myself in disagreement with him on that issue and if he were still alive he would have to rip up his major work, because being involved in the killing of Hitler would be the opposite of what he wrote.........bro Frank [Appolus].........................................

When Germany invaded Poland in 1939, igniting the Second World War, a group of German conspirators were already plotting a coup d'état; over the next six years, there were as many as fifteen assassination attempts against Hitler.

One of the co-conspirators, a double-agent who smuggled information about the plots to the Allies, was the young German pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer. In the late 1930s he wrote about the necessity of "risking" peace and "daring" a loving presence to others – words which seem to fly in the face of his later justification of assassination.

But Bonhoeffer formulated his theology and ethics in the crucible of a long and ultimately fatal struggle with the Nazi regime in Germany. His story is a fascinating window onto the dilemmas of twentieth-century ethics and spirituality.

Bonhoeffer's work came to full fruition only after his death. His efforts and his writings on behalf of the international ecumenical movement laid the groundwork for post-war inter-faith dialogue.

His insistence on the importance of an active response to Christ's Sermon on the Mount – a call to social justice – inspired many of the world's great civil rights leaders, including Martin Luther King, Jr., Vaclav Havel and Archbishop Desmond Tutu. [ none Christian].

RELIGIONLESS CHRISTIANITY
And finally, his brave and revolutionary concept of a "religionless Christianity" has helped Christian theology turn toward uncertain vistas of the future. It is an idea which exposes the vitality and relevance of faith in a world, as Bonhoeffer put it, "come of age."
http://www.bonhoeffer.com/bon2.htm
MARTIN DOBLMEIER.


BONHOEFFER BELIEVED THAT PRACTICAL ETHICAL ACTION WAS THE CORE OF WALKING WITH GOD!...AND SOCIAL ACTIVISM WAS THE PATH, AND THAT THE END, JUSTIFIED THE MEANS, EVEN UNTO MURDER.

http://www.alstaggs.com/main.html
Al Staggs provides a one-man portrayal (live and on videotape) of Bonhoeffer, underscoring the profound influence of fellow Union Theological student, Frank Fisher, an African-American friend who introduced Dietrich to the blight of racism in America.

Prisoner Bonhoeffer expresses moral outrage against the Nazi treatment of Jews and explains how that outrage led him to become involved in the German resistance movement, a commitment that would result in his being executed by hanging on April 9, 1945.

FRANK:"IF IT WERE EVER PROVEN?"

http://www.dbonhoeffer.org/
The International Dietrich Bonhoeffer Society, English section homepage. Provides information on research, recent publications, and the progress of the Dietrich Bonhoeffer Works translation project. This site would be most helpful to the serious student and/or researcher of Bonhoeffer.

AND:..If it were ever proven

THE FILM....BONHOEFFER is a 93-minute documentary film that tells the dramatic story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the young German theologian who offered one of the first clear voices of resistance to Adolf Hitler.
Bonhoeffer openly challenged his church to stand with the Jews in their time of need, and eventually joined his family in the plots to kill Hitler.
His books, Cost of Discipleship, Letters and Papers from Prison, and Ethics, were written during the struggle and are considered classics in the world of religion and ethics.

The film, shot on location in Germany and the United States, features interviews with family members, friends, students and associates who knew Bonhoeffer personally, including the last interview given by Bonhoeffer's closest friend and biographer, Eberhard Bethge, and an interview with Ruth Alice von Bismarck, the sister of Bonhoeffer's fiancée, Maria von Wedemeyer.

It also features interviews with outstanding historians and theologians including John de Gruchy and Geffrey Kelly, as well as comments from Archbishop Desmond Tutu.

Extensive research in archives both in Europe and the US yielded extraordinary archival footage, including a speech by Hitler praying for God's blessing on him and the German people and Bonhoeffer family footage that features the only known moving footage of Dietrich. The production team was also given access to never-before-seen personal and family photographs that help bring visual context to Bonhoeffer's life.http://www.bonhoeffer.com/thefilm.htm


Reading for the voice of Bonhoeffer is actor Klaus Maria Brandauer (Out of Africa, Russia House, etc). The film also features an original score by Emmy-award-winner John Keltonic.
THE CALL TO WHAT A PEACE MAKER REALLY MEANS!,,to the humanist of course.


THE DEFENSE OF THE SOCIAL GOSPEL! ..the enemy to the cross of Christ!
"Bonhoeffer is one of the great examples of moral courage in the face of conflict," explains director/writer Martin Doblmeier. "I believe part of the reason the film is getting attention now is because many of the issues Bonhoeffer faced – the role of the church in the modern world, national loyalty and personal conscience, what the call to being a "peacemaker" really means – are issues we continue to struggle with today."

The film portrays Dietrich Bonhoeffer in his search for the will of God, in his defense of the social gospel, in his struggle between pacifism and assassination plots, and in his core understanding of the interconnectedness of every single person.

http://www.bonhoeffer.com/groups.htm
I have watched this amazing documentary in it's entirety, with interviews from close friends, and family members, defining and defending DBs social gospel. It is a gospel of an Ethical lifestyle, where the End is always justified by the Means, which was the Trumpet call of DB, and in the end, is anti-Christian, and an enemy of the CROSS OF CHRIST!

In the end, in this Gospel, you are justified by the impact you have upon negative social situations such as his; the Jewish Holocaust of WW2. He was steeped in murder plots against Hitler, and justified his involvement as the will of God by means of a wicked and intense Humanistic philosophy that he proclaimed as Christian.

Liberal theology is much to faint of a condemnation for this heresy. DB taught a lie, a satanic lie, that one could be justified by his own moral and ethical choice, and should be. How many has he led to Hell, by means of his martyrdom as a Christian one? It was not.

If one can not see through this wicked deception, as so clearly opposed to the Word of God, and the clear teachings of the Bible, I truly fear for their soul. This is beyond obvious; it is another Gospel, bellowing to be noticed, as an enemy to the cross of Christ, and in no way founded from the simple but holy doctrines of grace and mercy found in the Holy Scripture.


"THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS!"

This is at the core of moral relativism. Is this what Jesus taught?





 2012/7/18 2:51









 Re: Dietrich Bonhoeffer's descent into a philosophical Hell.

I can't say I know much about Bonhoeffer, as my access to anything he's written has been quite limited, however even on the Bonhoeffer.com website that was posted, this was cited as being positive;

"His efforts and his writings on behalf of the international ecumenical movement laid the groundwork for post-war inter-faith dialogue."

If this were true, it would definitely be something not to get mixed up with. I'd have to see the writings for myself, but it might be something to look into and consider. Anything ecumenical is not anywhere close to the Gospel call in the slightest.

 2012/7/19 2:05









 Re:

I wish our Family here could come together more. We need one another. When your discernment is up - mine is down and when mine is up - yours may be down. GOD allows that for a specific reason. I won't get into all of the reasons why GOD allows that to happen - but one main reason is because He works through HIS Body and not lone-rangers.

This whole thing started over one of our new members wanting to fellowship here with us and read The Cost of Discipleship together with their newly found Family members.

I read that book about 30 yrs ago and I thought it was enriching. I'm not sure if I've read Life Together or not but I know I did read a lot about "The Body" back then.

We need to work with each other and not go against each other, at any chance that we can. The book that the few wanted to read together would have brought out much of what Bonhoeffer taught and we could just leave it at that.

I'm proud of Frank for not replying to this and I do recommend we look more to watch over each other and help one another than to go after things that we know the others don't believe in anyway. Soon we see the full-blown fulfillment of the Whole world hating us and then we'll be only too glad to find each other in that storm.
None of us are inter-faith nor ecumenical and you need to understand that those that were on that thread, about to read this book, are in no danger of going any of these ways that these links proport that Bonhoeffer 'supposedly' went.
Calvin - I can't read - but I can read others that did follow him. I told my Reformed Pastor that and he didn't mind. I'm not Reformed. Never thought I'd be in a Reformed Church - but you guys know that but if you met the Pastor, you'd understand why I can be.

I've seen the both of you be right about something when I wasn't seeing it - but on this one, I can't agree with this thread. I went to all of links and most all of them were telling us what Bonhoeffer said and did without any direct quotes or evidence.

Well, anyways, it's Way past bedtime here but I just wanted to appeal to you to let it go, please.
With what's coming - we need to really pick our battles by how dangerous they are to life and life-eternal and not go for things that we need not worry about anyone here falling into. No one's in danger of going the way that you're worried about -- especially not by reading that one book together.

I love you all here. We need each other and that's what yesterday taught me, again when I was wrong and you were right on that something that I was wrong about - just don't ask what it was. I'll tell you when we See Him.

Thank you, Family for hearing me out and considering. We have the Same Father. Heaven help us to bind together for our future. Love in our GOD.

 2012/7/19 4:45









 Re: What is the purity of the gospel? Why is it important?

"We need to work with each other and not go against each other, at any chance that we can. The book that the few wanted to read together would have brought out much of what Bonhoeffer taught and we could just leave it at that.

"I'm proud of Frank for not replying to this and I do recommend we look more to watch over each other and help one another than to go after things that we know the others don't believe in anyway."..JIG

First of all, this is not about anyone "going against" another, it is about the truth, and going for it. Secondly, how did you know what others "don't believe in anyway?".....you don't. You might assume that, but the young or immature might not know it, or those taken in by the veneers of religious platitudes that conceal the true nature of DBs, and others faithlessness.

Then, they become become compromised; maybe only a little, but gradually, and may slip off of the foundation of Christ and Him Crucified only, and to bare that Cross to our own daily death, and resurrection in the Spirit.

This is the simple Gospel, that the illiterate and lonely outcast may embrace, the BORN AGAIN Gospel, where Christians learn how to love one another, not just "get along." This is the gospel of the book of Acts, steeped in the Glory of God. DB never once testifies about his sin and about being born again, or promotes the "You must be born again!" foundation of the Word of God.

Tozer said something quite profound about this..[ I love Tozer, by the way; maybe not his journey so much..]..he said, [paraphrased].."It is not the Gospel that we must defend and that Satan attacks, "IT IS THE PURITY OF THE GOSPEL THAT WE MUST DEFEND AND THAT SATAN ATTACKS."

Bonhoeffer, though eloquent in his display, of even profound ideas about discipleship and duty toward a gospel, promoted a humanistic faith, void of the Spirit, that substituted situational morality; ethics, as a lifestyle, that is MOLDED from the teachings of Christ...IN HIS MIND!

He taught this in prolific style, and contrary to your idea that "no one is in danger " in reading his material, DB led an entire movement teaching these same modern heresies with many young ministers discipled by him. The reference to Appolus was simply that he stated that if proven that DB was indeed a conspirator to murder, he would have defied his own very pronounced creed. I agree.

I then proceeded to prove that DB was involved in the murder plots up to his neck, and this is the reason of his "martrydom"...and it was not martyrdom for Christ.

He taught Moral Relativism; Ethical Righteousness, The
End Justifies the Means Doctrines, as the Doctrines of Christ, and it is very subtle, but in no way Biblical, and in believing and living in this manner, he denied the Cross of Jesus, His sacrifice itself as unworthy, and established another, more human way to salvation; "A religion-less Christianity."

This spirit has consumed million and millions of souls, and it is a lie. I simply pointed this out, or tried to, and the fulcrum of this discussion happened to be with Frank, who believed otherwise.

I say debate the book! Surely you can handle my disagreement of the man's doctrine!

About something
I was right about. Could you feel frustrated and emotionally drained after pouring yourself into a situation, and then realizing that it was all about another feeding on your compassion; even relishing sorrow and pain to draw out your "love"?

Some people live their entire lives like that, and somewhere along the line, we must stop enabling; stop feeding it. Hard lesson...Thanks JIG for your humility...tom

 2012/7/19 5:52
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Tom I have to wonder at the reason you did not include this portion of Franks post to you:

Quote:My request for you to start such a thread is obviously tongue in cheek. It would probably be more encouraging for you to share writers from the past who you do consider Godly..................bro Frank

Why when starting this thread on this topic did you not include this portion of that last post to you on the other thread. By leaving this out of his post here you make it seem as if he really wanted you to begin another thread and by his own words that is not the case...

Also I just wanted you to know I am praying for you brother.

God Bless
mj



Edit: Tom if I may one last thought. You don't even have to answer this post from me. I just thought maybe it might be something you could pray over and examine your heart about. I know after my involvement with the other thread I have been doing just that. I would have email you this but did not see your email visible in your profile.
Edited: I deleted two words from my post, to insure that I did not give the wrong impression.

 2012/7/19 8:22Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Dietrich Bonhoeffer's descent into a philosophical Hell.

I do not know enough of Bonhoeffer to defend him.
As Finney he may have or may not have had (depends on whom we listen to.) some heritical understandings.
But what I have studied some what, is the early reformers, whom evengelicals exalt beyound measure. What I have found so far has been very disturbing.

we should look at their fruits.


15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 2012/7/19 8:49Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! 'ProudPapa'

Ummm, I hope we all understand that a lot of our gospel pioneers/teachers/preachers functioned in obedience regardless of our now discovering in these days that some of their teachings were rather frail and misguided at best.

I have a suggestion for those of us who have the mind to be so utterly dismissive concerning our early Christian brothers and sisters:
Come back to SermonIndex a mere 5 years from now and re-read your Threads/Comments.
I suspect that many of us would be surprised at what we would be recognizing as once belonging to us.

Perhaps, someone might wish to recommend some trustworthy and infallible godly teacher/preacher who followed after the 12 disciples/apostles. ??? ????

I distinctly recall Dave Wilkerson's wild-eyed prophesy writings of the 60's and 70's which have now been irrefutably proven to be false. (I say this only because I was introduced to the Gospel through an affiliate ministry of Wilkerson). But here he is ... still be praised by many visiting SermonIndex.

I personally know some people who were first introduced to the Gospel by the writings of Finney and a few other like-minded teachers/preachers. They are in their 80's now and still going strong with the Lord; albeit having abandoned some earlier understandings they had.

I thank God for those who suffered greatly for the gospel and in spite of their sometimes shaky/frail concepts and doctrine at the time. But for them and their courage, the Christian family would be a much worse situation without them. (I'm not including the violent excesses during the Inquisition Period nor the repressive ideas from the 30's an' 40's). Goodness!

But like I said, I'm not all that eager myself to return here to SermonIndex 10 years or 20 years hence and read what I so firmly pronounced as true for myself in this present day ... and I strongly suspect that neither should anyone else in here be feeling all that enthusiastic about reading their own ideas and Threads way-down-the-road.

 2012/7/19 9:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:
But what I have studied some what, is the early reformers, whom evengelicals exalt beyound measure. What I have found so far has been very disturbing.



For sure. I hope one day in the near future believers finally wake up to the idea that the Bible needs to be viewed by a Spirit filled believer through the lens of the first century apostles, and not the sixteenth century reformers. There are many who claim that the reformers "rediscovered" Christianity, but the fact is, there were those who never lost it.

 2012/7/19 9:19
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re: Dietrich Bonhoeffer's descent into a philosophical Hell.

Brothertom,

Would you vote for Bonhoeffer for President of the United States, if it were possible?


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/7/19 10:24Profile









 Re:

Reply: Well, I haven't met a man/woman yet that's omniscient/right 100% of the time [like what I just read now, ain't] and I still believe that when a wicked government arrests and kills you for saving others lives and protesting their genocide - that they're going to put out Propaganda/lies out about why they so unmercifully killed you ['silenced' you], and each branch of religion will 'interpret' your works and incorporate you into their system because of the good name and good you've done during a Holocaust - as you're no longer alive after the war's over to interpret for them / defend yourself / or grow into sounder doctrine at your young age.

So yes, Miccah - I'd vote for him. :)

 2012/7/19 11:06





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy