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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : "TEA PARTY" - WHAT a REACTION! by Andrew Strom

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 Re:

Hi Pilgrim,

I believe all good men would seperate themselves from any movement that had the spokesmen ( and women) that the Tea Party has. Many of its most outspoken edherants merely have a hatred of all things President Obama and all things Democrat. Its a mere extention of a lowly cultural war between two opposing ideoligies and let me tell you brother Pilgrim, the Lord does not dwell in the gutters of American politics with all of its serial hypocrisies.

The group that Bonhoeffer helped birth was the confessing church. Bonhoeffer never saw this as any kind of a schism but saw it as truly the Church in Germany. Certainly Bonhoeffer would have railed against any group so lacking in civility as the Tea Party. Listen brother Pilgrim, and I know that you know this, genuine brothers and sisters in Christ are known for their love of their enemies and their love for their brothers and sisters in Christ. They are peace-makers. They are truth lovers. They stand on the side of right no matter if that right is found to the left or the right of any subject. In such partisan times in which we live, where the hatred of either side for each other is palpable, do you know where you will find the saint? Not on the left, not on the right, but in the radical center of God's will. And because of that, saints will be hated by the left and the right. Its the haters that identify themselves Pilgrim, and the subject matter does not matter.

Love of country, desire to save the culture, desire to maintain or to hearken back to days either real or imagined is not the province of the child of God. The child of God' eye is on His Jesus, and on the Kingdom to come which enables him to avoid being entangled in the things of the world. That is why we are sojourners and ambassadors for Jesus and His Kingdom to come and the kingdom that presently dwells in our hearts. To be wrapped up in a political war or a cultural war is to be AWOL ( absent without official leave) from the real war, the war of darkness against light. The war against principalites and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places..............bro Frank

 2012/7/18 1:34
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Quote:
Hi Pilgrim,

I believe all good men would seperate themselves from any movement that had the spokesmen ( and women) that the Tea Party has. Many of its most outspoken edherants merely have a hatred of all things President Obama and all things Democrat. Its a mere extention of a lowly cultural war between two opposing ideoligies and let me tell you brother Pilgrim, the Lord does not dwell in the gutters of American politics with all of its serial hypocrisies.



You know Appolus that I agree with you on that. And, I guess I will have to educate myself regarding the spokesmen and women for the Tea Party. I am so disconnected with political groups that my recollections of the Tea Party are several years old and then there are a couple of my friends who obviously are not indicative of what you and Andrew are speaking about.

Quote:
The group that Bonhoeffer helped birth was the confessing church. Bonhoeffer never saw this as any kind of a schism but saw it as truly the Church in Germany. Certainly Bonhoeffer would have railed against any group so lacking in civility as the Tea Party. Listen brother Pilgrim, and I know that you know this, genuine brothers and sisters in Christ are known for their love of their enemies and their love for their brothers and sisters in Christ. They are peace-makers. They are truth lovers. They stand on the side of right no matter if that right is found to the left or the right of any subject. In such partisan times in which we live, where the hatred of either side for each other is palpable, do you know where you will find the saint? Not on the left, not on the right, but in the radical center of God's will. And because of that, saints will be hated by the left and the right. Its the haters that identify themselves Pilgrim, and the subject matter does not matter.



Amen to that, brother Frank.

Quote:
Love of country, desire to save the culture, desire to maintain or to hearken back to days either real or imagined is not the province of the child of God. The child of God' eye is on His Jesus, and on the Kingdom to come which enables him to avoid being entangled in the things of the world. That is why we are sojourners and ambassadors for Jesus and His Kingdom to come and the kingdom that presently dwells in our hearts. To be wrapped up in a political war or a cultural war is to be AWOL ( absent without official leave) from the real war, the war of darkness against light. The war against principalites and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places..............bro Frank



And amen to all of that too, bro. I have been telling my fellow believers for over 30 years that the political system offers the kingdom of God no help whatsoever. I have seen brethren who get into politics change. Their simple trusting, love for Jesus and all men turns into cynicism and a hardness. They lose sight of the Lord. And 30 years later, I see the the Political System and Christians more at odds with each other than ever. Paul tells Timothy that a good soldier of Jesus Christ does not entangle himself in the affairs of this world and the word "entangle" is a very descriptive word.

I was never defending the Tea Party. It was an obvious generalization that Andrew made. Maybe he should get off of the Tea Party weekly email as it seems to only inflame his passions and irritate him. I don't receive any political emails and I don't take political calls and I don't listen to Rush or Hannity or Savage or other talk shows. I used to many years ago because it seemed convenient to do in traffic on the way home but then I noticed that they would agitate and irritate me and I had to remember that the battle is spiritual and these programs are designed to inflame people's passions and convert them to their side of the political spectrum. It is all repugnant to me. I quickly grew tired of having my emotions manipulated by these talk shows. I can see how all the media has inflamed the passions of these Tea Party activists and I will take yours and Andrew's word that it has all become quite ugly.

I do look forward to reading about Dietrich. My book is on its way and I will try to become a little more current on the Tea Party. Seems I need to be updated. I have always predicted that the Christian political activists would bring the wrath of the government down upon all Christians. Why do you think Paul instructed the Believers to be in subjection to all in authority and pray for them?

Let's end this in peace. I am sorry if I have offended you or anyone else and thanks for hanging in there with me until we could get this worked out.

Blessings to you,
Pilgrim

 2012/7/18 2:00Profile
rjennings
Member



Joined: 2006/2/26
Posts: 52
USA

 Re:

" When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn."- Proverbs 29:2

“The Church must take right ground in regards to politics . . . God will bless or curse the nation according to the [political] course Christians take.” -Charles Finney

I understand why many would want to steer clear of the political scene as corrupt as it has become but to believe that we Christians can't and shouldn't influence the process is folly.  Reference Bonhoeffer, fine, but also review the Second Great Awakening and see the impact it and it's leaders such as Finney had on the abolition of slavery.  

When our president takes a public stance for same-sex marriage should we sit back and say nothing?  When we are led down a path to socialism are we to sit idle?  A pastor who lived in Cuba during the revolution spoke at our Tea Party meeting and with tears in his eyes drew parallels between what happened there to what we see materializing here.

The realities of the Lordship of Jesus and the sovereign reign of God in the entire universe are lost when we divorce ourselves from the world’s problems.

Jesus is Lord of all things spiritual, philosophical and political. There is no part of this world where His influence is “off limits.” He is Lord of all.

Many of the so-called Tea Party leaders are self-proclaimed to further their own goals and have no direct affiliation with the move itself.  

Perhaps I'm the one who should be looking for the FEMA truck to roll up to my front door from some of you rather than you worrying about what the wicked Tea Party boogeyman are gonna do.  Good grief.


_________________
Rick

 2012/7/18 7:26Profile









 Re: Rjennings

Brother I would commend to you a History of the Early Anabaptist by Denny Kenniston. That series is in the SI archives. These early brothers and sisters recognized their citizenship was in heaven. Their mandate was the gospel of Jesus Christ. For these views of the New Testament they were hunted down and martyred. Many of their accounts are chronicled in a work called Martyrs Mirror.

I mentioned the Anabaptist because they were persecuted for not being a part of the state church of their day. Mainly the conservative reformed state church of their day. This was an ere where church and state were one.

I mentioned the Anabaptist because in their day church and state were one. When the purity of the gospel is polluted with a political idealigy then those who follow the Lamb will be persecuted. For they will declare their allegiance to another king. And his name is Jesus.

This is why, brother, that the FEMA truck will not come from me. I followi the Lamb. My heart is set upon his kingdom. His kingdom that is not of this earth. I fully expect that I will be martyred in this life. My prayer would be that I be pleasing to him. And my enemies find salvation in Jesus.

Posted by Bearmaster.

 2012/7/18 8:11









 Re: Brotherton

Tom, a French philosopher said, those that failed to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it's mistakes. Your post has an excellent summation of what happened when the church in Germany lost its identity with Jesus.

If I remember my elementary poli sci class. German National Socialism was the extreme far right of political conservatism. Something very sobering to think about with the movement of the Christian right to the political right in America.

I am not vilifying any political party. But expressing a concern of what happens when the gospel becomes polluted with politial ideology. More and more I see the need believers are to come out of Babylon and be separate. They are to follow the Lamb where ever he goes.

Bearmaster.

 2012/7/18 8:36
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Quote:
I understand why many would want to steer clear of the political scene as corrupt as it has become but to believe that we Christians can't and shouldn't influence the process is folly.



Hi rjennings,

This is an interesting point and I'm not having a go at you but can you show me anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus or the Apostles organized to change the government structure? I can't find anywhere that they even railed against it.

Paul the Apostle was martyred during the reign of Nero, surely there was much evil to talk about concerning the government, Nero was known as one of the most wicked men to walk the Earth, yet Paul never talks about the Roman government or anything like that.

What Paul the apostle did understand is that we are responsible for building the Kingdom of God, this is the Christian's priority. We don't have time to get side tracked with the kingdoms or affairs of this world.

Christ did not come to establish earthly kingdoms, He came to build the Kingdom of God.

Just my take anyway :-)

 2012/7/18 10:31Profile
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 512
America's Heartand

 Re:

I am in general agreement that we should not overly focus on political matters.

However, I think many may be missing a point of reality in regards to what the disciples/Jesus could and did do on this subject.

The situation they lived under was one of Marshall Law imposed by the Roman conquerors. They did not have an elected government and could not change the political policies by electing representatives that shared their views.

The only option available to political change was to overthrow the Roman State and Roman Military Juggernaut.

IF they had been living with the same set of options that we do then PERHAPS we might have them acting in a different fashion.

What took a bloody revolution to accomplish in the Roman world might be accomplished in ours by the mere peaceful organizing of voters.

To be spiritually and intellectually honest we have to compare apples to apples. The way much of this thread has gone is more akin to comparing apples to asteroids. They just are not the same thing and we may well have radically different approaches to them because of it.

IF we can place upstanding and moral folks into office through peaceful means that allow us to live quiet and peaceful lives (1 Tim.) and stem the tides of innocent blood then there appears to be no reason not to. As was quoted earlier -

Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin condemns any people. Prov 14:34
or how about this
When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; when the wicked perish, there are shouts of joy.
Through the blessing of the upright a city is exalted, but by the mouth of the wicked it is destroyed. Proverbs 11:9-11

It simply appears right and wise to do our best to place the most upright citizens we can in offices of the government. That was not an option on the table for Jesus or the disciples. For that reason the comparison breaks down. They simply lived in a different set of circumstances than us in America today.

The real question is, "What would Jesus do if he were 25 years old in America today?".

 2012/7/18 14:13Profile









 Re:

Solomon writes..........
It simply appears right and wise to do our best to place the most upright citizens we can in offices of the government. That was not an option on the table for Jesus or the disciples. For that reason the comparison breaks down. They simply lived in a different set of circumstances than us in America today. The real question is, "What would Jesus do if he were 25 years old in America today?".


Not really sure where to begin with that statement or comment. If I take even the most base logic of this comment to its conclusion, it is saying that Jesus was outdone by a system and that if it have been a different system then there may have been a different outcome.

Brother Neil once simply said " flee Babylon.' Along with that I would say follow Jesus and the cross ( which apparently would not have happened if it were America and not Roman rule) This comment at its very best, is extremly naieve, not understanding why Jesus came or what He taught and that what He taught is universal, whether you live in Communist China, or Capitilist America, it simply makes no difference as to how a Christian should live and the unchangeable truth of the Scriptures.

"What took a bloody revolution to accomplish in the Roman world might be accomplished in ours by the mere peaceful organizing of voters."

And what bloody revolution was that Solomon? The zealots of Israel brought down the wrath of Rome who then completely destroyed Israel and scattered the Israelites all over the known world and it ceased to be a country for almost 2000 years. Is that the accomplishment you speak of? Do you not realize that what happened to Israel happened because of the judgement of God and no force or system on earth could have changed that? If America is now under judgement, do you think any force, any system any power can come against that?............bro Frank

 2012/7/18 15:27
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Quoting Solomon:

Quote:
IF we can place upstanding and moral folks into office through peaceful means that allow us to live quiet and peaceful lives (1 Tim.) and stem the tides of innocent blood then there appears to be no reason not to.



I hear your point brother, no worries there and it seems logical. However, it neglects to admit the point in which we are at now and the circumstances that got us here.

Throughout my life I've seen a plethora of Christian political movements come and go (The Moral Majority, The Christian Right, etc.) and none of them has really made any lasting 'change' whatsoever.

We have put fine, 'upstanding' men and women into office countless times, yet nothing has changed. Abortion statistics are up, divorces are up, murder is up, fatherlessness is up, adultery is up (I could go on and on). So my question for you is very simple:

How has your theory worked so far?

Would you call it successful? Maybe we just haven't tried hard enough? Your assumption is that we will achieve a spiritual ends using fleshly (carnal) means (i.e.: electing the right people into office) and I would submit to you that this line of thinking is contrary to the Word.

The foundation of the New Covenant is: Jesus came to establish the Kingdom of God.

He did not come to 'nation build'. The Lord, has ONE earthly Kingdom that He has built, Israel and Israel alone, which He divorced.

Look at what Paul says here:

Quote:
You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others. 3 Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer. ~2 Timothy 2:1-4



When I was in the military I didn't go off the base and start running for political office, I was concerned about the things that mattered to the US Navy, not the civilian population. Our affairs were strictly separate from theirs, we lived in another 'kingdom' within the kingdom of the US.

My point is not to belittle yours at all (I used to believe the exact same thing) but rather to point out that Christians have invested much in the 'political process' here in the US, with very, very, very little to show for it. Perhaps it would be more wise to put our energy, time and funding into something that will bear more fruit?

I hope that you can hear the spirit in which I wrote this, sometimes it's hard to communicate something in the same tone in which you are writing.

 2012/7/18 15:58Profile





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