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 Re:

MJ wrote..........

"The prison doctor at Flossenburg watched Bonhoeffer die and went on to write these words…
“Through the half-open door in one of the huts I saw Pastor Bonhoeffer, before taking off his prison garb, kneeling on the floor praying fervently to his God. I was most deeply moved by the way this loveable man prayed, so devout and so certain that God heard his prayer. At the place of execution, he again said a short prayer and then climbed the steps to the gallows, brave and composed. His death ensued after a few seconds. In the almost fifty years that I worked as a doctor, I have hardly ever seen a man die so entirely submissive to the will of God.”

Yes sister, so many martyrs have this wonderful testimony. If I were facing hanging by piano wire, I am not sure how composed I would be either sister, yet surely the same Spirit that has been in the Martys would be in us, dont you think? In the natural so many of us would not be able, but in the Spirit He enables..........bro Frank

 2012/7/16 19:54
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Yes sister, so many martyrs have this wonderful testimony. If I were facing hanging by piano wire, I am not sure how composed I would be either sister, yet surely the same Spirit that has been in the Martys would be in us, dont you think? In the natural so many of us would not be able, but in the Spirit He enables..........bro Frank

___________________

I do believe by HIS strength it is possible yes.

God bless
mj

 2012/7/16 20:11Profile









 Re:

Martyrs for Christ are trashed here on earth. But they are royally received in heaven. Where Brother Dietrich is now. The opinions of men mean nothing to him. For he is with his Savior.

Bearmaster.

 2012/7/16 20:47









 The noble cause....an enemy of the Cross.

"Yes sister, so many martyrs have this wonderful testimony. If I were facing hanging by piano wire, I am not sure how composed I would be either sister, yet surely the same Spirit that has been in the Martys would be in us, dont you think? In the natural so many of us would not be able, but in the Spirit He enables".....bro Frank

Does it really matter how a man accepts execution? or whether he is calm or brave, or kneels and prays? Does this give him or her credence with God? Do you have any idea how many Roman Catholic Priests or Nuns have been martyred? or Buddhist Priests and monks in the Communists revolutions in the past 100 years? I do know that many died bravely, and I would bet that most of them kneeled and prayed, and probably sang too.

I think what matters is Who a man or woman lived by, The TRUTH Himself, and the fruit they bore, and what they taught about this truth. Living by noble Ethical convictions, that leads you into Social Activism as a creed is fine, but let us not confuse this kind of life as a Christian one; it is not.

Where is the Testimony of a sinner saved in DBs life? Where is the testimony of being born again by the Holy Spirit? ; and add to this the almost tormented philosophical and intellectual spinning of religious theories....!

We will know them by their fruit. Were there salvations following his life?, as there is in every authentic Apostolic teacher or Pastor? What exactly did he teach? His idea of the cost of discipleship was to immerse himself in the cause, for the good of others, even believing that the end justifies the means. This is deep, perverted deception, even unto justifying murder.

We walk by the Spirit, in the Spirit, and if Jesus is our Lord, we choose Jesus to follow Him. We will reflect this in our spiritual life as defined in the Bible; the fruits of the Spirit; love, peace, longsuffering and patient etc.

We also will be bound to the truth in our confession united with our testimony, and will TEACH this simplicity; that is, if we are truly born again.

When I consider DB, I have not bore witness to this, in his writing, nor in his testimony. I detect a religious spirit, always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth. If he was born again, the most important and continuing event in a man's life, he did not speak of it, and it was not paramount in his life, or he would have.

He gave himself over to social activism in the most noble of causes; the liberation of the Jews facing the holocaust. He went so far as to plan help in two plots to assassinate their evil leader; [failed].

This was the cause of his martyrdom, not the cause of Christ. He is a noble figure, with many, many more who gave their lives in WW2 in such a way, for the cause of the Jews..[ Schindler's List]..but he is not my hero, nor, do I believe a Christian model, or teacher.

Again, I hope he did find Christ in those days before his execution, and I truly want to meet him in Heaven, if I make it.





 2012/7/17 9:01









 Re:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/julyplot.html

"At the end of 1943 the Schutz Staffeinel (SS) and the Gestapo managed to arrest several Germans involved in plotting to OVERTHROW Adolf Hitler."


Emphasis mine.

"Overthrow" is not 'assasinate'.



What I do know is that, many of these 'quotes' are not found in the books that they are said to be found in.

What I do know is - the complexities of Hitler's reign is that it was Funded by international bankers and also certain men in high places in the U.S. and elsewhere.
It was an experiment for what's to come. A proto-type and much was learned by those that did and do want a one world dictator in the future that practices genocide. There's much not being researched here about Hitler and WWII.

AND there is no better way to get rid of a honorable man and Not allow him to become a "hero of the faith type martyr, that influences and strengthens other's resolve to come against genocide in the future" than to lie about him, if even in just the misquoting or twisting of his words.

'We' know that the one world leader that they've had in mind to come, will not be overthrown by anyone other than The King of kings at His Return - but these occultic demon possessed rich men of the earth that are waiting to put him on their throne, don't know that 'we' can't and won't attempt to over-throw their man - the son of perdition.

No man is perfect - most especially in the most trying times in history and at such a young age - killed at 39 yrs old - but checking all the links posted against him and knowing the reasons behind Hitler's rise to power and for WWII - what I see is a very craftily designed plan to come against those that opposed such a demonically inspired government as it was.


“Judging others makes us blind, whereas love is illuminating. By judging others we blind ourselves to our own evil and to the grace which others are just as entitled to as we are.”

“Bless them that persecute you.' If our enemy cannot put up with us any longer and takes to cursing us, our immediate reaction must be to lift up our hands and bless him. Our enemies are the blessed of the Lord. Their curse can do us no harm. May their poverty be enriched with all the riches of God, with the blessing of Him whom they seek to oppose in vain. We are ready to endure their curses so long as they redound to their blessing.”

- The Cost of Discipleship




Page 1 of 3 -

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/29333.Dietrich_Bonhoeffer?page=1

 2012/7/17 10:35









 The Gospel is not what you say, or pray. Consider the Pharisee.

"At the end of 1943 the Schutz Staffeinel (SS) and the Gestapo managed to arrest several Germans involved in plotting to OVERTHROW Adolf Hitler."


Emphasis mine.

"Overthrow" is not 'assassinate'. JiG...........

BT; response: Oh, but it is one in the same. Consider Solomon's justice on everyone involved in the conspiracies to dethrone him., as being guilty; and in this case, overthrow was murder.

Consider the assassination of President A. Lincoln. John Wilkes Booth pulled the trigger, and was killed by legal police, but everyone he talked to involved, that even knew about it and did not reveal this plot, was executed, 4 men and one woman, who may have only overheard the discussion of the cabal at her hotel.

True, no man is perfect, and sins, as do I. The issue here is not his death caused by his crime, but his life, and the perverted teachings he disguised as the Gospel; IE: Moral Relativism, or Ethical Socialism, versus the Cross, and being born again by the Spirit of God.

The former is deception, and will lead you away from God; it ins in this sense, heresy.

But, on a deeper level, what is the issue here?
I SAID:
"We will know them by their fruit. Were there salvations following his life?, as there is in every authentic Apostolic teacher or Pastor? What exactly did he teach?

His idea of the cost of discipleship was to immerse himself in the cause, for the good of others, even believing that the end justifies the means. This is deep, perverted deception, even unto justifying murder."

JiG quoted DB; "Judging others makes us blind, whereas love is illuminating. By judging others we blind ourselves to our own evil and to the grace which others are just as entitled to as we are.”

“Bless them that persecute you.' If our enemy cannot put up with us any longer and takes to cursing us, our immediate reaction must be to lift up our hands and bless him. Our enemies are the blessed of the Lord. Their curse can do us no harm. May their poverty be enriched with all the riches of God, with the blessing of Him whom they seek to oppose in vain. We are ready to endure their curses so long as they redound to their blessing.”

- The Cost of Discipleship .DB

Very moving and spiritual confession, but when confronted with the reality of living it, he endured none of it, and conspired to murder rather than to bless.

He sealed this hypocrisy, sadly, with his own blood.


He began to say unto his disciples first of all," Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops."

 2012/7/17 11:32









 Re: The Gospel is not what you say, or pray. Consider the Pharisee.

Quote:
"Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops."




On 'this', you and we can definitely Count On, Tom.

 2012/7/17 11:48









 Re: The noble cause....an enemy of the Cross.

Brothertom. MJ and I and bearmaster and in fact almost every other person are having a conversation about a dear brother in Christ. You have made your charges, which were soundly refuted by Rbanks and others and you fell silent after that on the hertic issues and the God is dead statement and the " he did not believe in the ressurection,' statements. We agreed, or so I thought, to disagree. You are entitiled to your opinion and you have expressed it. I was expressing my admiration for how this dear saint died, I am not sure why you would choose to interject on this comment between MJ and I and Bearmaster. What purpose does it serve? You have already stated plainly what you believe, most others disagree with you, but perhaps now you are simply flogging a dead horse? There should be a purpose for our comments on the forum...........bro Frank

 2012/7/17 11:51
IssacharSon
Member



Joined: 2012/7/12
Posts: 185
Southeast USA

 Re: Book Club starts 07/27/12 @ 7:15 pm

Jesus-Is-God wrote:

"What I do know is - the complexities of Hitler's reign is that it was Funded by international bankers and also certain men in high places in the U.S. and elsewhere.
It was an experiment for what's to come. A proto-type and much was learned by those that did and do want a one world dictator in the future that practices genocide. There's much not being researched here about Hitler and WWII."

Regarding the "prototype" dictator. Your comment reminded me of my review of I Samuel last Sunday. Saul was the prototype dictator for the Tribes of Israel. Overcome by the "Son of David's" antecedent!

And, the Tribes were (though more explicitly) begging for a dictatorship! Without considering his destructive potential to practice genocide unto suicide by the end of his reign.

Hmph! Even with Hitler, there was nothing new under the sun.

Even if all of the horrible and false criticism this thread has (enthusiastically) researched about DB were true. Which it IS NOT!

I forgive him. I love him. And I look forward to worshipping with him in eternity. As I do all of the saints who care enough to examine the nature and necessity of living out a relationship of discipleship in Christ, Our Lord and Savior. DB's Savior, too! <Smile>!

Love-in-Christ,

KP

 2012/7/17 15:07Profile









 Floggin' a dead horse? Maybe so....

"What purpose does it serve? You have already stated plainly what you believe, most others disagree with you, but perhaps now you are simply flogging a dead horse? There should be a purpose for our comments on the forum"...........Frank

Actually, Frank, I simply responded to the direction of the thread, and in my experience, that what a thread actually is. Many as yourself, directly requested my thoughts, by way of challenge. It may be difficult for you to see this, but couldn't your assessment of me, and the above statement, could be directly aimed at yourself also.

Never-the-less, you are right. I've done enough "flogging" here, and I have made my point, which I consider relevant, at least to the cause of what sound doctrine and what true Christian Activism is, and what it is not.

Your assertion that "Most others disagree with me" may not be absolutely true; Though the number of saints who agree with me doesn't matter a whit,* I have communications with some who support me, and the ideas I expressed, and in my mind proved, against a faith in a Ethics Driven Gospel, Humanism, and Social Activism as the authentic Gospel;
[ Which DB did.]

It is not, but deep deception, and for those who may believe it as a path to God, dangerous and filled with mental ambiguity, as ideas and practical ethics become melded into the fires of a soulish righteousness that "The End does justify the means!"

He wrote a number of inspiring books, "The Cost" being most famous, and from time to time lifted up very inspiring maxims about the heart of moral action, and discipleship, but this in itself does not make the man, his deeds do. He became an underground resistance spy and helped the plot to assassinate Hitler, did he not? In his mind, this was serving Christ in testimony. I say not.

This, in the end was DBs testimony, and his martyrdom itself laid down upon this one and same alter, and sadly, apart from the Gospel of Christ.


* I was thinking of Paul the Apostles courageous stand against the mighty Peter about the Judaizers, and Peter's elitist, religious Jewishness. He may have been the only Christian in the world who understood and confronted the hypocrisy started here, and can you imagine the impact! If he did not, we could not fellowship a Messianic believer in spirit and truth today!

Paul did so absolutely alone..[ even Barnabas was carried away...]

Sometimes we must think and act alone.




 2012/7/17 15:31





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