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learn
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Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Eternal punishment/death-why?

From what I understand, the common accepted view of why there is eternal death for those unsaved is because God is eternal and for God, the sin He hates goes on and on and thus sin requires eternal punishment.(can see gotquestions website for more information for those interested.
http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-hell-fair.html)

However, I'm not so sure about this. Does anyone have any other reason as to why there is eternal punishment? Thanks.


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geraldine

 2012/7/8 18:39Profile
joliboy11
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Joined: 2011/9/16
Posts: 207
Philippines

 Re: Eternal punishment/death-why?

may this thread help you:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44582&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1

actually there is a view that hell and annhilation does not contradict each other...

 2012/7/8 21:31Profile
Blayne
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Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re: Eternal punishment/death-why?


Hi! 'Learn'

You have asked "Why there is eternal punishment?"

What is punishment?
It is the wages/payment of sin.
What exactly are the wages/payment of sin?
A person is employed (doing the works) of the evil one and therefore becomes eligible to be paid for his work.
Who pays the wages of sin?
The wages of sin are paid by the one who employed him.
Why is it eternal?
There are some who were not only employed by the evil one; but who have enthusiastically become slaves of the evil one. As such, they belong to the evil one ... they have become his property. When the evil one is cast into the bottomless pit, he is legally entitled to drag his possessions with him.

=====
It is known that he who commits sin finds himself alienated from the Living God and places himself, whether knowingly or unknowingly, in the service of the Evil One. The words of the Apostle Paul confirm this fact: "Do you not know that if you continually surrender yourselves to anyone to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey, whether that leads to sin that leads to death or to obedience which leads to righteousness?”
Again, we read: "Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but an obligation --- something owed to him"; "Every sin receives retribution; a reward or wage will be duly paid for every disobedience." (Rom 6:16; 4:4; Heb 2:2).

To take the life of a man, perhaps, expires only a moment, but the pursuant guilt has the person declared a murderer. However, it should be recognized that this resultant debt is not on the wage list of God. Rather, it is on the wage list of the Devil.
The Evil One is an exact employer who leaves nothing unpaid and, to be sure, he returns wages to all those who work for him. Lawlessness, as noted earlier, is rewarded with misery, pain, suffering, terror and then ultimately death. (We are speaking here of 'death' as being the fathomless sphere in the kingdom of darkness).
Mark it well! It is the Evil One, not God, who is the cruel custodian of this negative treasure. It is only in the Devil's 'payroll book' that man's account is entered in debit-red.

=====
The above is excerpt from "The Crisis of Guilt"
http://www.tolovejesus.com/index.php/component/content/article/2-uncategorised/270-the-crisis-of-guilt

=========================
Eternal punishment/death-why?
by learn on 2012/7/8 15:39:09

From what I understand, the common accepted view of why there is eternal death for those unsaved is because God is eternal and for God, the sin He hates goes on and on and thus sin requires eternal punishment.(can see gotquestions website for more information for those interested.
http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-hell-fair.html)

However, I'm not so sure about this. Does anyone have any other reason as to why there is eternal punishment? Thanks.
=========================

 2012/7/8 22:05Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, my take goes to the origin, when adam rejected the tree of life...Jesus... and ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil... law and religion. we are religion seekers... self,law, cerenony, ever earning ,never reaching always rejecting the Way, the Truth and the Life.if you continue to count on yourself and your performance to please God you are continuosly eating of that bad tree and rejecting the Son and His grace and provision of grace. watch a fathers face when a child runs into a room and jumps up and grabs his fathers neck and lays on his shoulder ,putting his love and faith on his fathers strength. that is what our heavenly Father wants.otherwise you are condemned already from the original rejection.jimp

 2012/7/8 22:43Profile
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

For those that do not want God in this life, they would go to hell because God loves them. They did not want this God, see no purpose for this God, and if they never had to ever hear anything more about Him again it would be to their great pleasure. They believe knowledge of God is totally unnecessary and probably a waste of intellect.

So, Hell is the place where God is NOT communicating, His presence is never felt, His provisions are never manifest.

Here, now, they are lord of their own life (Genesis 3:5). Disregarding His word and not accepting His Lordship they get to decide (sometimes along with other like-minded peoples) what is good or evil and see these as relative terms based on culture and consensus.

They see reality as a place where God is not and they believe they will like that reality. They do not see or accept a providing God and do not want what He would provide since they believe they do not need it (all they need or can have is here without a God). They think knowledge of God is imaginative at best and delusional at worst. So for them personally they reject knowledge of God and knowing God.

So if there is this God when they die they will go to the place their heart believes in and desires. There will not be God for them there and neither will there be anything He would have provided and they will finally and totally be lord of their own life. They want light? Then will have to create it! If they want a cool breeze to comfort amidst the fires of chaos? Then they will have to make it so! They want fellowship with others? Fine no problem you create those to fellowship with. We call this condition hell though you may call it paradise…

The only problem is they do not have the power to, neither can you, create anything so they will be alone forever in darkness and fiery torment because that is a reality without God which is what they have placed their faith in.

Now if there is no God, then it will not matter, except that while here we got to experience a dimension of hope, joy, and peace you never got to know. So yes they are going to hell if our God is God but it will not be because He has not tried (albeit not according to their terms…but that is because they are not His lord).

Pilgrim

 2012/7/8 23:23Profile
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Never heard it expounded that way (exactly) before Pilgrim777. Pretty interesting for sure.

 2012/7/9 2:55Profile
jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re: Eternal punishment/death-why?

I may get shot for this but.............

As the years pass I find a self tendency to return to a more "old time" simplistic approach to such questions. Nostalgia maybe, I don't know. Perhaps it's just a desire to avoid additional over taxation on aging brain cells. Or maybe I just don't know any better. At any rate, let's see how this fits.

Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Right here in this verse God established death for disobedience! Now Adam may or may not have had a concept of sin. I don't know, he may not have even understood what it meant to die. After all he had not witnessed death at the time. Without an attempt to define either, we can now however, safely conclude it would be a sin if Adam ate this fruit. Without doubt, he knew he was to not partake due to God's command. Just as man does today Adam disobeyed, ate of the fruit and committed sin. In turn God's word became reality death and sin entered the world. Death, both physical and spiritual, the result of sin. Spiritual came immediately, the physical process began. Now I suppose we could stop here with the simple statement, "Death is required payment for sin because God said so." But you've got the old rusty gears moving in my head and I'm having interesting thoughts. Let's take it a little further and jump over to;

Leviticus 17:14 (KJV)
14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

See where we're told the "life of all flesh is the blood"? Well, of course. We know that don't we? That was written about 1400 BC. As a point of interest, I'm told a fellow by the name William Harvey discovered blood circulation as the key factor in physical life sometime in the early to mid 17th century AD. So what you ask? Well some 3000 years after God told Moses "life is in the blood" this guy described completely the systematic circulation and properties of blood! Seems somebody should have checked with Moses. See, I told you. You got my wheels turning. OK, now that we know life is in the blood let's go backwards a couple of verses and read;

Leviticus 17:11 (KJV)
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Wow! I know, you're thinking "this is Levitical Law of Sacrifice and this old guy is nuts" right? Yeah, well I may have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel, but I ain't dead just yet so humor me a bit as I type about God's word. This is where it get's interesting in my archaic mind. Besides, you started this remember?

Now God is telling us life is in the blood and blood makes atonement for what, the soul! I'm getting a little tired now so let's make a quick mental trip back to the Garden of Eden then I'll go to bed. Adam and Eve ate of that forbidden fruit then what? Yep, they fetched up a bunch of leaves, covered their nakedness and hid from God. So they thought. I find it a little interesting that in his discourse with God, Adam wanted to place the blame on God, remember? I have this mental vision of Adam shaking his finger at God and saying "Hey, it was that woman YOU gave me". Course that's not exactly what took place. But then the most amazing thing happened. God shed the BLOOD of living animals. Why? Of course He still wanted to PROVIDE Adam and Eve's physical bodies of FLESH with those skins but what did we read in Lev 17:11? Yep, you got it! for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Now my brother, we have a condensed beginning of a thin red trail leading from Eden to Moses and the Law to Calvary and life! Praise God! Ain't it a beautiful thing? And on this truth I can rest now. Goodnight.

 2012/7/9 3:51Profile
learn
Member



Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

Thank you all for your kind responses. And @Jimur, you make me laugh, thanks and a special hug to you :).

Some of you have some things that are very interesting especially Blayne's post, however I think for now I have the MAIN reason for it and that is because He is God. Also think that Jonathan Edwards have it right too although I can't fully comprehend still but getting better. God is God and He is immensely beautiful and we can't really understand or imagine (reminds me of Job's answer to God when God answered him and Isaiah 6:2,3--the seraphs covered their faces in the presence of God)

Yeah I know, just yesterday, I couldn't quite get it but something happened to me while reading the thread that joliboy linked.

Blessings to all.


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geraldine

 2012/7/9 11:26Profile





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