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To put on and to put off is just a part of a person reckoning oneself dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

How can a person reckon himself to be deed indeed unto sin if this is not an actual reality?

The word mortify means dealing with something that is already dead. I can kill nothing but because God has put my old sinful nature to death and now because of that fact it is easy for me to deal with because it is dead.

No one could possibly put on or put off anything that God Himself had already dealt with in Christ on the Cross.

l will disagree with you because it is a divine fact that we have been crucified with Christ. We are NOW totally and absolutely dead. This is NOT a positional truth but an actual true reality.

My mind is being renewed daily. The Holy Spirit continually shows me new aspects of what all that this death means to me. As a result I do die daily as I embrace with joy these new discoveries of what God in Christ has already accomplished for me and in me. The eyes of my heart are always being opened more and more to see His accomplished work. All this is the result of having and embracing His Life with in me. His life within me is NOT the result of my self effort or anything that I ever have done. I just walk in the enjoyment of His Life and His accomplished work.

 2012/7/7 13:40



For us, then, the two greatest facts in history are these: that all our sins are dealt with by the Blood, and that we ourselves are dealt with by the Cross. But what now of the matter of temptation? What is to be our attitude when, after we have seen and believed these facts, we discover the old desires rising up again? Worse still, what if we fall once more into known sin? What if we lose our temper, or worse? Is the whole position set forth above proved thereby to be false?

Now remember, one of the Devil's main objects is always to make us doubt the Divine facts. (Compare Gen. 3. 4) After we have seen, by revelation of the Spirit of God, that we are indeed dead with Christ, and have reckoned it so, he will come and say: 'There is something moving inside. What about it? Can you call this death?' When that happens, what will be our answer? The crucial test is just here. Are you going to believe the tangible facts of the natural realm which are clearly before your eyes, or the intangible facts of the spiritual realm which are neither seen nor scientifically proved?


So also, whether I feel it or not, I am dead with Christ. How can I be sure? Because Christ has died; and since "one died for all, therefore all died" [2 Cor. 5. 14). Whether my experience proves it or seems to disprove it, the fact remains unchanged. While I stand upon that fact Satan cannot prevail against me. Remember that his attack is always upon our assurance. If he can get us to doubt God's Word, then his object is secured and he has us in his power but if we rest unshaken in the assurance of God's stated fact, assured that He cannot do injustice to His work or His Word, then it does not matter what tactics Satan adopts, we can well afford to laugh at him. If anyone should try to persuade me that I am not Mr. Nee, I could well afford to do the same.

Watchman Nee - The Normal Christian Life

*edit added statement

 2012/7/7 13:50

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2045

 Re: Paul's struggle

proudpapa said,

"As far a Romans 7 goes, It is a man under the bondage of the law, This Does not seem to make since in the Context of the Christian life for Paul."

Paul the apostle says,

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

In this section Paul continues to speak in the first person singular, but he leaves the past tense(of the verses preceeding) and uses the present tense.

The verb "carnal" is in the present tense. Paul is saying "I am continually carnal". He is not talking of his past unsaved state but of his present state.

If Paul had been speaking of himself before conversion, he would have used the word natural:

"the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God" (1 Cor. 2:14).

Carnal is not used to describe an unregenerate person, but a Christian not delivered from the power of the flesh:

"I, brethren could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ" (1 Cor. 3:1)

"Paul is here describing the most spiritual and mature of Christians, who, the more they honestly measure themselves against God’s standards of righteousness the more they realize how much they fall short. The closer we get to God, the more we see our own sin. Thus it is immature, fleshly, and legalistic persons who tend to live under the illusion that they are spiritual and that they measure up well by God’s standards. The level of spiritual insight, brokenness, contrition, and humility that characterize the person depicted in Romans 7 are marks of a spiritual and mature believer, who before God has no trust in his own goodness and achievements." - MacArthur

Romans 7:16 But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good.

W.E. Vine comments,

"This pictures a believer who finds himself in agreement with the Law by his disapproval of that which is forbidden by it. That he acts contrary to it is no evidence that he has a bad opinion of it. The conflict is not between the Law and the believer, it is between the believer and what the Law condemns.

"When a regenerate man does what he hates, his own mind testifies his approval of the law that prohibits the sin which he has practiced." - R. Haldane


The prominence of the first-person pronouns — I, me, my, myself, occur over forty times in verses 9–25.

Those who go through this Romans 7 experience are doing an introspective search for victory in self, where it cannot be found.

Hear the conclusion of the matter:

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:24,25

1 John 5:4 Because, whoever is born of God, overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, our faith.

Amen! By Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone to the Glory of God alone.

When this is learnt you've learnt of Him that Gospel which is of Him.

Of which John Newton exclaimed upon his deathbed,

"My memory is nearly gone, but I remember two things, that I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour."

May your hope be in nothing less than Jesus blood and Righteousness.

To be like Jesus -- that's our goal
Though it doesn't happen fast;
We trust the Spirit -- He's our Guide,
Till we're glorified at last.-- JDB

 2012/7/7 23:58Profile


First rule of proper hermeneutics = Scripture interprets Scripture - not men.

We have to take everything that Paul [and the whole of The Word] says about "sin" and then we can interpret these verses in Romans 7:7-25 and if we can't see that Paul is personating a man under "the Law" after reading all else that he wrote and what the others had written concerning sin and the Law, previous to these 19 verses and after, then we've failed the The Word of GOD - His finished work on the cross - His resurrection and His sending of His Spirit to indwell us.
We cannot "reckon ourselves dead therefore unto sin" if we hold to "but how to perform that which is good I find not, for the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."
That small portion of these 19 verses compared to the whole of the New Testament would spell sure disaster and a fine excuse to not "walk in the spirit" and "to give occasion for the flesh."

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

 2012/7/8 0:23

Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211



Your gospel has no power as you misinterpret Paul in Romans.

Your gospel allows license to sin.


 2012/7/8 0:37Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2045

 Re: game over

Jesus-is-GOD,aka Dorcas,aka Linn,

You persist in at-tempting to teach men as your co-hort Brenda does.

You were warned and your name made anonymous by the moderators on a few occasions over the years,but such has not tamed your spirit. You were spreading false doctrine and were not submitted as a meek and quiet spirited woman ought to. Sadly you've not learned to be such a woman as the Scripture and the Spirit teach.

It is to your shame and to the bad health of both your body and spirit that you've not been humbled over these many years. I do pity you and pray that you'd repent that the LORD may have mercy upon you yet.

If you do not heed these words I fear lest a worse thing come upon you. It is not usual for me to speak thus,therefore I am beseeching you that you do not ignore what you read here.

You have a deeply hostile spirit toward "men" which must go! Your post exudes with that spirit,not the mere words but that which is behind those words which have surfaced.

It has been a long time comin' over these many years,and you've been exhorted and admonished more than a few times in your life. I speak not just concerning SI. You know of that which I speak.

I'd exhort you to go to the elders and confess,and ask that they pray for you lest a worse thing come upon you.

You'll continue in bad health,both physically and spiritually if you refuse to humble yourself. You'll contine to be easily offended and embittered rather than be easily entreated and at peace having true humility unless you rid yourself of this infirmity of these many years.

You might have begun your post thus -

First rule of proper hermeneutics = Scripture interprets Scripture - not women.

...but you did not!

You know what many reading this do not. There is more to those words you begun your post with than meets the naked eye. Men are enemies to you deep inside your mind. Take this seriously and be free indeed. Do this and experience freedom in Christ which you have never known.

I now offer these comments on Romans 7 by a "man" named Charles H. Spurgeon,

Romans 7:14

“I am carnal.” There is the source of all the mischief, — a disobedient and rebellious subject, not an irksome law. The law is good enough, it is absolutely perfect; “but,” says the apostle, “I am carnal,” — fleshly, — “sold under sin.”

Romans 7:15.

The man himself does that which is evil, but his conscience revolts against it.Such is our complex condition. We are new creatures, but the old man struggles within us to get the mastery.

Romans 7:15.

This is a strange contradiction, — a man who has grace enough to will to do good, and yet does it not. There are two men in the one man, — the new nature struggling against the old nature. This must be a renewed man who talks in this fashion, or else he could not say that he hated sin; yet there must be a part of him still imperfect, or else he would not do that which he hates.

Romans 7:16.

“If I do that against which i and my conscience rebel, so far, the better part of me owns the goodness of the law, though the baser part of me rebels against it.”

Romans 7:16, 17

The new I sins not, but the old nature is sin, and remains what it always was.

Romans 7:17.

The renewed man still stands out against sin. His heart is not wishful to sin, but that old nature within him will sin even to the end.

Romans 7:18, 19.

Oh, how often have men, who have been struggling after holiness, had to use these words of the apostle! The more holy they become, the more they realize that there is still a something better beyond them, after which they struggle, but to which they cannot yet attain; so still they cry, “The good that we would we do not: but the evil which we would not, that we do.”

Romans 7:20

The true man — the newborn man — is struggling after that which is right. The real “I “, the immortal “ego”, is still pressing forward, like a ship beating up against wind and tide, and striving to reach the harbor where it shall find perfect rest. Oh, what struggles, what contentions, what rightings, there are within the men and women in whom the grace of God is working mightily! Those who have but little grace can take things easily, and swim with the current; but where grace is mighty, sin will fight for the mastery, though it must yield ultimately, for there can never be any true peace until it is subdued.

Romans 7:21

Speaking for myself, I can say that, often, when I am most earnest in prayer, stray thoughts will come into my mind to draw me off from the holy work of supplication; and when I am most intently aiming at humility, then the shadow of pride falls upon me. Do not gracious men generally find it so? If their experience is like that of the apostle Paul, or like that of many another child of God whose biography one delights to read, it is so, and it will be so.

Romans 7:22, 23

This is the believers riddle, which only regenerate men can understand. Do we know what it means?

Romans 7:22, 23, 24

These are birth-pangs, the throes and anguish of a regenerated spirit. The Christian man is fighting his way to sure and certain victory; so, the more of this wretchedness that he feels, the better, if it be only caused by a consciousness that sin is still lurking within him, and that he longs to be rid of it.

Romans 7:23

It is some comfort when we feel a war within the soul to remember that it is an interesting phase of Christian experience. Such as are dead in sin have never made proof of any of these things. These inward conflicts show that we are alive. There is some life in the soul that hates sin, even though it cannot do as it would. Do not be depressed about it. Where there is pain there is life.

Romans 7:24

This proves that he was not attacking his sin, but that this sin was attacking him. I do not seek to be delivered from a man against whom I lead the attack. It is the man who is opposing me from whom I seek to be delivered. And so sometimes the sin that dwells in believers flies at us, like some foul tiger of the woods, or some demon, jealous of the celestial spirit within us.

I went to that same Primi­tive Methodist Chapel where I first received peace with God through the simple preaching of the Word. The text happened to be, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

"There," I thought, "that's a text for me." I had got as far as that, when the minister began by saying, "Paul was not a believer when he said this." I knew I was a believer, and it seemed to me from the context that Paul must have been a believer, too. Now I am sure he was. The man went on to say that no child of God ever did feel any conflict within. So I took up my hat and left the place, and I do not think I have fre­quented such places since.

Romans 7:25.

So that on the one hand he agonizes, and on the other hand he triumphs. Loathing sin and glorying in Christ are our daily experience. Groaning after holiness, and finding it in Jesus, we both sigh and sing, repent and rejoice, fight and conquer. This is not a past, but a present experience, and he is a true heir of heaven who feels it within.

 2012/7/8 1:53Profile

Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


Jesus-is-GOD is not Linn or Dorcas.

I sure am glad you are not the moderator of these forums.

They would be a secret men's club, only - Right?

I have not agreed with everything that the JiG or others including you have said but what would the women who have the Spirit of Christ be able to say in your world? Would you like some more ice tea?

Come on dude, give it break. I have never seen you chastising sisters before. I mean, I've seen you spouting the Patriarchy thing over and over, but now you are actually acting it out for all to see. You're probably angry at the moderators for not banning these sisters and you finally couldn't take it anymore.

Greg has said many times this is not a church and the moderators are not elders so I would think that is why they are not being told to be quiet.

A lot of people have had to look past your man-made doctrine so the least you could do is look past theirs if you see any.


 2012/7/8 2:12Profile


My name is Ann, Savannah. Check my profile.

I love to read what the Biblically solid men on this forum post and they know it and that's why I haven't been posting to many threads - only with the women of late - because we seem to have enough men that know how to handle His Word without the help of commentaries.
In fact, I've prayed with others here for years, that enough men of GOD would come so that we women needn't be "Priscillas" and I believe He's answered.

I fear it's you that don't like women that don't agree with you. That's been obvious, to some men as well.

But back on topic --- Spurgeon didn't believe in freewill neither - so I can't go with his commentaries on every verse - though I like the most of Morning and Evening and some others of his --- no man is infalible.
My church is Reformed and yet they accept me, though I'm not Reformed. Not "sinless perfection" neither.

Have a pleasant day.

 2012/7/8 2:26


Pilgrim, I'm pokey. Your post wasn't there when I hit Reply.

Funny, I was wondering if some thought that Priscilla only made the coffee. :)

Act 18:24-26 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John and he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Rom 16:3,4 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

1Co 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

2Ti 4:19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.

Thanks, Brother.

 2012/7/8 2:30

Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


Not a problem, Annie. :-)

 2012/7/8 3:18Profile

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