| Re: |
Yes, I can agree with that too, Proclaimit.
Romans 7 is a picture of the saved or unsaved trying to perfect themselves in the flesh. Impossible! No victory is attainable.
The sin of the Christian is "self-improvement". We must live by His life. His life gives us the victory. His life overcomes.
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
| 2012/7/10 8:51||Profile|
| Re: thanks for clarifying my post|
Amen! We are saying the same thing about Romans chapter 7. I think you expressed it better than I did. Paul was speaking about his defeated life while attempting (past tense) to live under the written law as a Jew, but also he was expressing that if he continued to do so after he was born again, he would still be defeated. Thus, who could save Him? Only "Jesus Christ the Lord!" YEAH!!!! This is OUR plea too! YEAH!!!
In addition, it was the gift of the Spirit of Jesus Christ through the new birth that would enable him to walk in victory. YEAH!!! This is our gift too! YEAH!!!
What a wonderful Savior is Jesus Christ our Lord! YEAH!!!
thanks again, proudpapa
| 2012/7/10 1:03|
| Re: |
Good night, proudpapa. I learn from everyone. I feel like I am just getting started all over again in this walk with the Lord. Like Savannah said, in "Perils of Perfectionism" (and I agree with this), "One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection." "But Jesus tells us to lay aside every weight and sin that so easily besets us and let us run with patience the race that is before us."
Also, if we are not being perfected in love, then we are not being perfected in anything.
1Jn_2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn_4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Let me repeat this from my thread "Some thoughts on Romans 7 and 8".
Further in Romans 8:14-17, for the first time the word "son" is found in the book of Romans. Here we notice a progression of truth, having discovered the liberty of the Spirit to live free of the flesh, he now discovers that "those who are being led by the Spirit, these are the sons of God," vs. 14. Not only free from sin, but placed before God as sons. Hallelujah!!
The consciousness of sonship comes as one begins to walk in the Spirit. One is to have his "mind set on the Spirit," and develop a consciousness of the Spirit of God who indwells him (vv. 9,11). As he enters this walk he will come to know the rest which belongs to the sons of God.
| 2012/7/10 0:20||Profile|
| Re: pilgrim777 |
pilgrim777 thankyou my Love goes out to you, I must go to bed now. You have wounderful insight and I become humbled by how much more insight you have than I, I learn much from your post. Good night
| 2012/7/10 0:12||Profile|
| Re: |
I agree with you and v9 is a key verse. People think that Romans 6,7 and 8 are chronological but 6 shows the victory that comes from Christ, and 7 is flashing back to life without Christ under the law, then 8 is the crescendo that goes with 6.
We know that it is a past event because in Romans 7 he talks about getting free from the law by dying. Well, we know that Paul did not die physically to get free from the law. He died in Christ and was raised to newness of life.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Then, Paul goes on in Romans 7 to explain what he means by using an allegory of a marriage.
The law will always live on (heaven and earth will pass away but the law won't) and the only way to get free from it is to die and be raised to newness of life (born of the spirit).
Christ is the end of the law to all who believe.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Therefore, we must be in Christ, who is the end of the law.
We now live by the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and this is great cause for rejoicing and glorifying God. (Romans 8:2).
| 2012/7/10 0:08||Profile|
| Re: Proclaimit |
Hi Proclaimit wounderful post. I do not know everything and have many things to learn and room for growth and am open for God to change my perspectives. You bring such a wounderful heart and so much deep truth to the forum that I am hesitant to correct you, so rather than do that. I will offer another perspective on Romans 7.
RE: Proclaimit wrote //In Romans 7, the apostle Paul was speaking present tense of course.//
I personally have come to the conclusion That Romans 7 is clearly a first person narrative of a past tense event.
at verse 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died
This is a past tense event When Jewish paul was an infant with no law and no sin. as He matured and learned the Law it slayed him of his innocence, The death from innocence revived from his parents generation unto his own, Hence In Adam we all die 1 cor 15 v 22 the rest of the Chapter is past tense, a man under the bondage of the Law untill the conclusion and sollution of who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 (I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord)
anyhow just another understanding. Your Post is a wounderful blessing.
| 2012/7/9 23:58||Profile|
| Re: righteous indeed!|
I would suggest that here again is a situation where we must dissect and categorize (if you will) exactly what we are saying.
1. There are those believers who have been taught wrongly that a "second blessing" or some other measure of God's unction will (alone) grant perfection (absolute complete agreement with God) in one's life and walk automatically.
2. There are those believers who have learned rightly that through the new-birth, slavery to sin has been defeated entirely in one's life and bondage to righteousness has been clearly granted. (righteousness is imputed - Rom. 4; and righteous living is made available - Rom. 6)
Let us encourage each other to live the righteous life that we have been enabled to do through the new-birth; and that is especially strengthened through the experience of the baptism of the Spirit of our living God - whose desire and plan it is that we all become just like Jesus "in holy conduct" and character. Let us rejoice as we realize the walk of righteousness, but with a spirit of humility. Let us be quick to accept the conviction of the Spirit when we do sin, and even quicker to repent in earnest. Finally, let us not assume that by the righteousness that was imputed to us positionally is what we walk in conditionally (automatically). To WALK in righteousness requires absolute surrender to His will by yielding to His Spirit within us.
In Romans 7, the apostle Paul was speaking present tense of course. He was simply showing that any attempt to live righteous through obedience to a written commandment would be futile. That is because it would be by his own strength. But that to live by the Spirit within him, there would be victory. That is because the Spirit of God cannot sin. It is all a matter of absolute surrender to the Spirit of God.
Remember: Romans 6, spells out our freedom from slavery to sin and that we are righteous bound; Romans 7, shows how we cannot walk in that righteousness by seeking to obey written commandments by our own strength and will; and Romans 8, shows that as we live by the Spirit within us we will not have any condemnation due to the fact that the Spirit does not sin against the law of God since He IS God, and thereby we "mortify the deeds of the flesh." Hallelujah!
| 2012/7/9 22:52|
| Re: The mixture is subtle, but it is not complicated.|
Hi Brother Tom. Alot of misunderstanding goes on in these forums and alot of wrongful sterotyping goes on as well.
RE: Brothertom wrote 1 Cor. ch 15 21 //For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.//
Brothertom is it here speaking of Physical Death??
Or Spirtual Death??
Brothertom what are your thoughts that v 22 says not only that (all) died in Adam but that even so shall (all) be made alive in Christ??
At what Point is a man personaly made alive in Christ??
RE: Brothertom wrote //"I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO MAN comes to the Father, except through Me!"... [and especially through his own good moral choices.]//
Actually the context for John ch 14 v 6 is this please read the context. compare your addition of //[and especially through his own good moral choices]// to verse 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John ch 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
RE:Brothertom wrote // And this is the affect of the lie, the heresy.
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; [ or your good moral choices derived from the Law ] ye are fallen from grace!"//
Amen Brothertom, I Love Galatians It would serve me well to study through it again. It was a key element in me finding Grace and victory over habitual sin..
Listen it is neither me nor what I have read of Pilgrams post that are trying to bring men under the Law.
I am not saying that we need to be perfect of ourselves to be accepted of Christ which is impossable rather all I am saying is that it is possable to Walk in the Spirit, and not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
RE Brothertom posted //P.S. "I have never met anyone who claimed they are beyond sin." Pilgrim777//
I only ever met one person and it was on a forum (not SI) that claimed such not only from habitual sin but also in ever expect of Character to be sinless, before the disscussions where over and he wrongly sterotyped me, I think I proved to him that there was still some of the old self left in him.
I will say biblicaly speaking, We can have victory over every temptation but never will we reach a point to which we are incapable of sin.
RE: Brothertom wrote //Well, I take that to mean true Christians, Rick. There are many cults and the like who do not believe in sin, or having a sin nature. This teaching, in the end, denies the atonement of the Blood of Christ only, by teaching that man could attain holiness by obeying the moral commands of the law, and then partially accepting grace through Christ when one fails//
acctually believing Sin as Choice which we all have failed at Romans ch 1 v 18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold (not suppress) the truth in unrighteousness"
and therfore personally guilty and deserving of wrath rather than the Gnostic belief that Sin is substance. as what the Manichaeism Gnostics taught whom Augustine was a member of before his conversion. Does not denie the atonement of the blood of Christ only.
I believe in Power in the atonement. atonement is not a licence to continue Living a life of sin
2 tim ch 3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
RE: Brothertom wrote //Why is this so important? It seems kind of "picky" doesn't it? The belief that we have the power to "save" ourselves by moral choice cuts across the need for the Cross itself, and diminishes Jesus' willful sacrifice downward as simply an element of Salvation, an accessory, if you will. It seduces the naive believer into a semi-faith of the Law and Christ, the same as the wicked Judaizers that plagued Paul.//
Amen, we can not save ourselves by works nor do our works make us exceptable before God only the finished work of Jesus does, I hope nothing I have said would make you think that I believe that keeping the Law makes us acceptable. Our overcoming the power of sin does not happen by trying to keep the Law as the man in Romans 7 was trying to do.
RE: brothertom wrote //"Jesus gave grace, sure, but it is up to me to choose to be good, and I can be!"; even holy into sinless perfection. In the end, it is Anti-Christ, and extremely subtle in it's attack upon true Christian faith. In my view, it is satanic. We are saved by Grace, through faith, and that in the holy sacrifice of Jesus' Cross alone, plus nothing. Our moral choices are like dung in the end of things, and thinking so is the same pride-lie the Pharisees taught; 'Whited Sepulchers" Jesus named them. Looking clean and white, but with dead man's bones inside//
Actually 1 John says 4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Is sarx sin ??
| 2012/7/9 22:43||Profile|
| Re: |
Quote: Ah finally something we can agree upon.
The training reproof and correction are to bring us to the state where it is not the written word but God Himself living within who teaches and guides. It is a state where we live it naturally whereas previously God`s ways went against that thing inside of us that must be put to death, or rather be made effective by faith. If we dont believe we can be without sin then we never will be.
Yes, I do understand what you mean by saying, "Previously God's ways went against that thing inside of us that must be put to death".
God's ways I am assuming you mean the Law? If yes, than the parallel verse for that is,
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was AGAINST US, which was CONTRARY TO US, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
| 2012/7/9 20:29|
| He purifies us if we endure ..........God's way of adaption.|
quote: ...God`s ways went against that thing inside of us(krautfrau)
'Perhaps it's my misunderstanding but this seems backward to me. Is it not more accurate to state that thing in us goes against God's ways? I mean after all, we agree His is the standard correct? Just curious, thanx."
Krautfrau has it right. God is holy, and is always drawing us unto Himself, as He can only fellowship holy. Consider this;
"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.[ In his strife to make you holy..]
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
This is the nature of being made holy. We must die to us, be burnt out, so that He may dwell in the flames; the nature of fiery discipline that we must endure, or suffer the bastard title.
"But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."
He is doing this now to every true believer; We are being tested in the fire to see what and who we love, ourselves or Jesus more than ourselves. If we endure this fiery trial, then we become purified more, and it never stops.
Yes, thank God that, "God`s ways went against that thing inside of us." or, we would perish from our resistance to Him making us a son or daughter. Many do.
| 2012/7/9 19:27|