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jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re: Do you sin?

Hi krautfraeu. I'm not sure how this works so you'll have to help me out here.

I presume you had to achieve perfection prior to your first salvation since you state;

quote:

Question : What happens if you sin?

Answer : The same thng as happened to Adam, you forfeit your place in paradise. He that sins belongs to the devil.(krautfraeu)

Do the scriptures tell us Adam was never saved and forfeited his place in Paradise? At any rate, based on your statement it seems one would have to achieve perfection prior to salvation. If one is at that time perfect, how is it one would have need for salvation at that time? How does one achieve such perfection if one belongs to the devil? Is salvation not required but just desired? Is there no form of assurance since you say you have in the past, lost that state of perfection and sought salvation again. Does assurance simply come from the state of perfection? Exactly what purpose does Christ have in this system? Does one become lost at the first sin committed or are there other clauses which grant temporary assurance until you reach a certain point in sin? Sorry, I guess that wouldn't fit since anyone who sins belongs to the devil, or would it? Does one simply lose this feeling of utopia if this point in sin is reached? Another problem I have in understanding is, if you have reached perfection how is it possible to fall into sin again? Doesn't sound too perfect a state to me and if there is no assurance what's to do, start over, or go straight to jail without passing Go? So many questions. If possible could you please explain this entire process? Does it contain a sort of "plan or even purpose of salvation" which you could point me to in scripture? Is there a location where the congregation meets for instruction, fellowship and learning? Does it have a denominational or similar name?

I apologize if my questions offend, seem inappropriate, rude or disrespectful. That is not my intention, I simply know of no other way than to ask.

Thanks for your post krautfraeu, I look forward to your reply.




 2012/7/6 20:04Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

I'll take mercy and grace.


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/7/6 14:25Profile









 Re:

It is hard to describe what it is like to be in this state. It can be compared with being in love, that feeling of joy and excitement inside, that feeling of being in exctacy, bubbling up inside and the presence of God being so strong like the time when you first came to Christ and were forgiven. Once one has experienced it there is nothing to compare it to. The words in scripture suddenly have real meaning and especially the words joy and freedom. In this state there is absolute healing of all the scars of life. I went for over 30 years not knowing what I was missing but now I do. Nothing is impossible when one is in this state and sin is not even in the picture. Pleasing God is the only thought.

Brenda

 2012/7/6 14:21









 Re:

brothergary

I understand saved as being saved from sin so yes it we are sinning then we are of the devil.

EverestoSama

"Every believer who has ever lived has obtained sinless perfection, until they've sinned, and needed to repent, thus beginning the cycle again."

I don`t believe that one becomes sinless when they become a believer. It happens later It is not normal to be in a cycle and if you read about the holiness movement in the 18th C they would lose it once then become established. But very few enter it today.

Oracio

"It would mean one would have to remain sinless in order to remain saved?"

Yes and it is not sad at all it is the most amazing thing when one is in it. Having command over creation (like Adam) is one of the benefits and that in itself is amazing. Please dont pray for me. I dont want to delivered from this `deception` I want to be restored.

Brenda

 2012/7/6 14:09
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Oracio Thank you for the post and the links. For me, they were indeed helpful and in fact did lighten my burden. Had I found them earlier I may not have posed the question. The second added to my thoughts this idea perhaps stems from a hyper edge of a more widely accepted theology.


Heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting, in the name of our Lord Jesus forgive us our sins. Burden us the Spirit call them to our attention. Lead us in your truth, according to your will and that which is pleasing to you alone. Father grant us perseverance that we might follow in that truth into all truth and in such light eternally glorify you Sovereign above all. Amen(jimur)


Amen jimur! I once lived with a brother who was starting to get caught up in this doctrine and it was weighing heavy on him. He would examine his thoughts and heart and would get really down and depressed because he wanted to be perfect and thought that God was rejecting him for not being perfect. After we prayed for him the Lord set him free from that deception and he was able to see it for what it was, as a lie from the pit of hell. He said he felt as if some demons were lifted from him and stopped oppressing him with this deception.


_________________
Oracio

 2012/7/6 13:59Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Question : What happens if you sin?

Answer : The same thng as happened to Adam, you forfeit your place in paradise. He that sins belongs to the devil.(krautfrau)



That would mean that those trusting in Christ as Savior and Lord lose their salvation everyday if they commit one sin everyday. It would mean one would have to remain sinless in order to remain saved?

That is a very hyper/extreme view of sinless perfectionism. So sad for those who get caught up in it.

Quote:
Question : Have you been in this state?

Answer : Yes, twice but lost it again.(krautfrau)



So you lost your salvation twice and are currently unsaved because you are not currently sinless(in another recent thread you asked for prayer in that regard).

How sad krautfrau. That is not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Hope you can come to a place where you see such deception of the enemy and repent and trust in Christ and Christ alone for your salvation. I will pray for your deliverance.
Sincerely,
Oracio


_________________
Oracio

 2012/7/6 13:38Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
Question : Have you been in this state?

Answer : Yes, twice but lost it again.



Which surprise, surprise, is the type answer I continually here from those who promote this.

Every believer who has ever lived has obtained sinless perfection, until they've sinned, and needed to repent, thus beginning the cycle again.

 2012/7/6 12:42Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

im maby misunderstanding ,brenda

are you saying if we are not in a stage of sinless perfection,we are sinning and therefor of the devil

so is it right to say ,that youve only been of god twice for a perioud of time ,,,andthe remainder of time your went back to being of the devil ,like adam

 2012/7/6 12:36Profile









 Re:

jimur

Question : Do you believe it possible to be without sin in this life?

Answer : Yes

Question : What is your definition of sin?

Answer : Anything that breaks His Holy law but does not include the result of the fall like sickness and errors of judgement.

Question : What are errors of judgement?

Answer : Misjudging the intentions of someone, usually thinking they are better than they are. God does not expect us to be all wise.

Question : Is there room for growth in sinless perfection?

Answer : Yes growth in spiritual knowledge.

Question : What happens if you sin?

Answer : The same thng as happened to Adam, you forfeit your place in paradise. He that sins belongs to the devil.

Question : Have you been in this state?

Answer : Yes, twice but lost it again.

Question : Are you in this state at present?

Answer : I prefer not to say. It does not affect the doctrine and I would rather the focus be on Christ than myself. Even if I said yes, it is pointless to try to judge me as man rarely can judge correctly unless he is sinless too. No-one believed Christ.

 2012/7/6 12:19
jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re: Do you sin?

Oracio Thank you for the post and the links. For me, they were indeed helpful and in fact did lighten my burden. Had I found them earlier I may not have posed the question. The second added to my thoughts this idea perhaps stems from a hyper edge of a more widely accepted theology.


Heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting, in the name of our Lord Jesus forgive us our sins. Burden us the Spirit call them to our attention. Lead us in your truth, according to your will and that which is pleasing to you alone. Father grant us perseverance that we might follow in that truth into all truth and in such light eternally glorify you Sovereign above all. Amen

 2012/7/6 10:08Profile





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