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Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

I'll take mercy and grace.


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Christiaan

 2012/7/6 14:25Profile
jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re: Do you sin?

Hi krautfraeu. I'm not sure how this works so you'll have to help me out here.

I presume you had to achieve perfection prior to your first salvation since you state;

quote:

Question : What happens if you sin?

Answer : The same thng as happened to Adam, you forfeit your place in paradise. He that sins belongs to the devil.(krautfraeu)

Do the scriptures tell us Adam was never saved and forfeited his place in Paradise? At any rate, based on your statement it seems one would have to achieve perfection prior to salvation. If one is at that time perfect, how is it one would have need for salvation at that time? How does one achieve such perfection if one belongs to the devil? Is salvation not required but just desired? Is there no form of assurance since you say you have in the past, lost that state of perfection and sought salvation again. Does assurance simply come from the state of perfection? Exactly what purpose does Christ have in this system? Does one become lost at the first sin committed or are there other clauses which grant temporary assurance until you reach a certain point in sin? Sorry, I guess that wouldn't fit since anyone who sins belongs to the devil, or would it? Does one simply lose this feeling of utopia if this point in sin is reached? Another problem I have in understanding is, if you have reached perfection how is it possible to fall into sin again? Doesn't sound too perfect a state to me and if there is no assurance what's to do, start over, or go straight to jail without passing Go? So many questions. If possible could you please explain this entire process? Does it contain a sort of "plan or even purpose of salvation" which you could point me to in scripture? Is there a location where the congregation meets for instruction, fellowship and learning? Does it have a denominational or similar name?

I apologize if my questions offend, seem inappropriate, rude or disrespectful. That is not my intention, I simply know of no other way than to ask.

Thanks for your post krautfraeu, I look forward to your reply.




 2012/7/6 20:04Profile
Lkid
Member



Joined: 2007/7/6
Posts: 109


 Re:

There is no sinless perfection this side of eternity. Our hearts might try to deceive us as they are deceitful. We may get a 'feeling', be in a state, or whatever, but the word of God can't be wrestled with.
If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8 context there is speaking of christians.
The problem with this doctrine is that whether you are walking in victory or not at any given moment, your focus is on yourself and how you are performing, instead of resting your gaze upon Him who is our Savior.
No assurance here in this doctrine, just pride and misery. I rest in the grace of God in Jesus Christ who has saved me to the uttermost

Lloyd

 2012/7/7 3:15Profile









 Re:

Hi jimur

I will do my best to answer you.

Question : I presume you had to achieve perfection prior to your first salvation

Answer : No. I know where you are going with this, and there are no works involved. Perfection is imparted and is the result of salvation (from sin)

Question : Do the scriptures tell us Adam was never saved and forfeited his place in Paradise?

Answer : Scripture says that Adam at first had no sin to be saved from but when he did sin he could no longer have communion with God due to his shame and therefore was ejected from paradise (which is communion with God)

Question : How does one achieve such perfection if one belongs to the devil?

Answer : When the sin nature is removed the devil has no right of access to the person.

Question : Is salvation not required but just desired?

Answer : It is required if one wants freedom from the realm of the evil one and the same fate as him, and is the will of God for His creatures.

Question : Is there no form of assurance since you say you have in the past, lost that state of perfection and sought salvation again. Does assurance simply come from the state of perfection?

Answer : It brings full assurance that one is united with God and pleasing Him and secure unless one steps outside of that. There is a measure of assurance before that but the conscience is not clear so there are doubts when the distractions of the world cease for a while. Many interpret the doubts as the work of the enemy but they are not. The devil encourages us to feel assured falsely. Peace where there is no peace.

Question: Exactly what purpose does Christ have in this system?

Answer : The blood of Christ, with which He reclaimed the rights Satan has over us, cleanses us from sin or makes us perfect and needs to be efficatious moment by moment to remain in this state of perfection. It imparts His righteousness whereby we may continue to be saved from sin. Our part is complete subjectation to His Lordship, to be led by the Spirit in all things.

Questin : Does one become lost at the first sin committed or are there other clauses which grant temporary assurance until you reach a certain point in sin?

Answer : I believe that the first step is in the temptation to work from our human energy or the soul instead of the derived life of Christ within. It is to step outside of being led by the Spirit. Adam did this when he was tempted to gain knowledge outside of the means provided by God. Once we take this step we are in a state of independance from God and we get carried away with the desires of the flesh for such things as love and approval from our fellow creatures, making them idols and such like. Then sin enters in.

Question : Does one simply lose this feeling of utopia if this point in sin is reached?

Answer : One loses union with God and a barrier is formed. Man is made by God to be in this union so if it is broken there is grief which produces the empty feeling inside and lack of the sort of joy that perfection brings. The conscience is darkened and the man loses his spiritual sense.

Question : if you have reached perfection how is it possible to fall into sin again?

Answer : As said previously. If one avoids using human power or human understanding, then one remains in perfection. What happened to me - I dont fully know. I dont know if it is problem with me or just a sign of the times. I learned as a child to depend on myself. But falling from grace was classed as inevitable to teach one to become strong and resist this temptation.

Question : If possible could you please explain this entire process? Does it contain a sort of "plan or even purpose of salvation" which you could point me to in scripture?

Answer : The plan is seen in the history of the children of God which is given for our education. There is a seal on scripture which remains so long as we sin and Satan is able to deceive us. So we are blind to the deeper meanings in familiar scriptures as they pertain to perfection. But if we look at their history, of being children of God but being still in bondage and lacking understanding of the ways of God and how things work in the spiritual realm, and then being led into the wilderness of testing and suffering but of later entering into Caanan or the rest of God if they trusted and believed in Him despite circumstances and could thereby enter in by faith and faith alone.


Question : Is there a location where the congregation meets for instruction, fellowship and learning? Does it have a denominational or similar name?

Answer : Those who have been led this way, the ones who want to `go all the way` with God have been in all denominations and have formed into groups at times of spiritual renewal or revival and the early Quakers are an example of perfection teaching. These days are dark.

This is my understanding which I believe has been revealed to me directly from God and not learned from others.

Brenda

 2012/7/7 5:47









 Re:

Thank you Lloyd you are describing your own lack of obedience. Others have a different story to tell and a different understanding of those `hot` scriptures. I will not tussle with them as the true meaning of them has already been explained on this site but man will try desperately to cling onto excuses for his sin.

 2012/7/7 5:52
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Walking on water

Matthew ch 14
24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.
25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

 2012/7/7 11:46Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3229
Texas

 Re: Do you sin?

I sure wished you would have said please, just a yes or no answer. :) You should never leave yourself open to a question like that amongst Christians, they will quote you every scripture in the Bible as a way to get around a yes or no answer. By the way, YES! I sin.


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2012/7/7 11:50Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re: Walking on water

Whatever is not of God is sin.

We sin when we are walking after the flesh and not walking after the Spirit.

The Word of the Cross says to be a Christian, one must die t ohis or her life in this world and not be joined to anything in their heart but to Him.

The primary reason that people are worldly and fleshly (lustful, carnal) and also religious, is that they do not see the true concept of the cross of Jesus Christ. The true concept of the cross says that not only Jesus died on the cross for our sins, but that we died with Him, to no live no lonver for ourselves, but for Him who gave Himself for us.

The Word of the Cross is offensive to the flesh and will cause men and women who are in the flesh to persecute the one who preaches it (Gal 5:11).

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Pilgrim

 2012/7/7 11:53Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Whoa.... Don't drink the kool aid folks...


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/7/7 14:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Question : What happens if you sin?

Answer : The same thng as happened to Adam, you forfeit your place in paradise. He that sins belongs to the devil.

Oh dear.

Are you saying that sin is more powerful than the blood of Christ?

 2012/7/7 16:16





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