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 Worshipping with drunks

Last night, I attended a pretty large house church worship service, led by two "Holy Ghost bartender" types, (renewal, Toronto Airport Christian fellowship, etc etc...I'm learning the different derivations of "christian city" as my sis Chanin puts it)

These guys, (who will remain brought with them a whole large following of basically 'drunks', although when the meeting started everyone was fairly sober. I brought a couple of homeless brethern, and a pot of mashed potatoes, coz it was a potluck.

I mingled briefly, and then worship started, and I was trying to be SO open, coz I knew what was on the agenda, "getting drunk in the Spirit" (or shud I lower case that s?)

I did not want to judge, I wanted to be open to whatever God wanted to do in this miserable canyon. Heaven knows the Name of Jesus is rarely lifted up in my community on a corporate basis, so as long as people were going to be LIFTING UP THE NAME OF JESUS, I was gonna be right there with them.

It wasn't to be.

There was more talk of angels, than the Savior of the world.

And something started grieving me intensely, (even now its hitting me, still, 24 hours later)
so I went outside, and found a patio chair, got on my knees and started to pray, I remember asking the Holy Spirit to fill me, fill this house, search out hearts and answer prayers, etc. I asked for a Divine Covering on the house, and in Jesus Name to bind up any demons of confusion, etc.

I remember before worship, a couple of participants were already "loaded". Its funny that I feel inclined to use the verbage of my own wicked and sinful past. And they were laughing , and I remember thinking, 'o brother', and then I thot I heard the voice of God say, "Neil, whats so bad about people laughing in a dark world?"....and as I type this, I'm wondering WAS that God I heard, or was it the author of confusion?

anyway, after worship, I got off my knees, went back in the house for the speaker.......oh started out good, he popped open the Bible, which is always a good sign(lol) and then he gave a small exhortation, that while prophecy is good, getting "drunk" is good, we "have to have the Word as the basis"....all good, and then.............

he proceeded to yammer and blither on for over an hour......right after he stammered "2nd Samuel and.....uhhhhh........lets see"...he launched into a very incoherent diatribe, that at times would be punctuated with "eeeeeee....ahhh, bing bing bing bang booooing".

I'm not kidding. He made this noise, it was some kind of machine, and he would repeat it after he made another after another inane point .."bing bing bang bang boooiing".

He had a British accent and he started to sound like Dudley Moore in "Arthur", the whole thing was intensely depressing. I could feel the Spirit grieving, I could feel demons lurking and laughing at this sad sad spectacle, draining the Cross and the Spirit of Its Power, making the faith into some kind of bizarre foolish fleshly circus.

I was begging God to give me a word, give me a tongue to lay on this whole thing,to lay on this assembly... and He said, "why? , you can put yourself forward, you be quiet".

What really made it bad was this, the implication was, that the way to God, (the Name Jesus was rarely used....maybe once in a worship song) the only way to God was to get drunk in the Spirit, and the rest of the church who didnt get drunk were just a bunch of pharisiacal fools. He spent a lot of time putting down the church, or as he said, he "got delivered from being a pastor"....and then the assembly laughed derisively when he repeated the word "pastor".

One of the brothers I brought up with me left in disgust when the man slurred out a story of how a weepy punk rock girl came up to get prayed for, and the man laughed and said he blew snot on her and gave her a "snot blessing".

I'm not kidding.

and the whole assembly found this very very funny, I started to pray for the punk rock girl, that God did NOT let this one be driven off by the foolishness of man.

He then continued to blither on, about how the stale ole fuddy duddys in the church always took "offense" at him, because they were building a "fence", and he was just knocking down that "fence"......

there was a whole chorus of ejaculatory....'uuunnnh's!'...or 'shoooooe!'

its a similar sound thats made by this subset, its supposed to be spirit led, but I do believe its auto suggestive.

then the man yammered on some more, and then realizing an hour had skated by without any Scripture, begrudgingly he read a verse out of 2nd Samuel and started to shriek and whine about how we must go from Hebron to Jerusalem, and "knock down fences".

The everyone got in circle, holding hands, and they started to "get drunk". Folks were falling onto the floor, shaking their heads, laughing insanely. I went to get a cupcake.

Understand, all this time, I was NOT in judgement, I did not have that spirit, I was in constant prayer, I was grieving, interceding, I was actually in pain over all the confusion. It was very sad.

I went out to the porch and sat with the other brother I had brought, whilst the revelry continued unabated.

After a bit the speaker came out, coz he was going back to his hotel. I shook his hand and asked where he lived in the UK, he told me, and I said 'prayer for me brother, coz I want to visit the Hebridean Islands in Scotland and I have no money'...we spoke every so briefly on Duncan Campbell and Evan Roberts, and he asked me if I know about a website that has Duncan's sermons, I said "yes, its sermonindex dot NET" (lol) and then I hugged his neck and he was gone.

Y'know, that whole 'drunk in the Spirit' thing is a terrible deception. I want to write why, but I've spent ALL day in the house grieving, I actually MISSED church...I couldn't go. I feel miserable, I feel empty, I feel very alone in this community, its so terribly dark here, so terribly post-Christian, and there are NO other workers here, no other Spirit-filled men here.

But you know what? I have Jesus, and He lives inside me.

That I do know, praise God.

 2005/2/13 23:41

Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498

 Re: Worshipping with drunks

Y'know, that whole 'drunk in the Spirit' thing is a terrible deception. I want to write why, but I've spent ALL day in the house grieving, I actually MISSED church...I couldn't go. I feel miserable, I feel empty, I feel very alone in this community, its so terribly dark here, so terribly post-Christian, and there are NO other workers here, no other Spirit-filled men here.

But you know what? I have Jesus, and He lives inside me.

That I do know, praise God.

1 Kings 19:9-18 9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah? 10 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away. 11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake: 12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. 13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah? 14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away. 15 And the LORD said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria: 16 And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room. 17 And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay. 18 [b]Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.[/b]

Have you listened to a sermon by Dr Tozer, called, "The Doctrine of The Remnant"?

James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/2/14 0:30Profile

Joined: 2005/2/14
Posts: 8

 Re: Worshipping with drunks

Don't let the realization that there are many out there deceiving the people, destroy your faith.

It will eat at you, I know for I too have come from a church where they were fake Christians.

Not all who say Lord will enter the Kingdom.

Instead of finding every bad thing there is to find in Christianity, I pray you look to a church like Timesqure Church.

Go to David Wilkerson’s sermons on this site and download such sermons as

Christ and his Harlot Church
A Call to anguish and others.

And be strengthened to know that some are being saved out of that ungodly thing let lose on the Earth in these last days.

God Bless you and Protect you from those who would pretend to be Christians.

 2005/2/14 1:10Profile


I've been in those kind of services before, back when I was involved in the Charismatic movement. One observation I've made is that these types of speakers always have some who followers who come in with them when they come to a church. I prefer to call them "plants" because I strongly suspect that's what they are. In other words, they are planted there (it seems) in order to "get the ball rolling". There is tremendous pressure in these services, because if you don't participate in the wild stuff that's going on, you're made to feel less spiritual, or labeled a doubter, or you're told you're lacking in faith... or better yet, you're told that you havent received the Holy Spirit yet... that's my personal favorite.

As zealous as Paul was when his name was "Saul", I was as zealous for the Charismatic movement (but I didn't persecute Christians! LOL). But in retrospect I now realize that a) I was deceived, b) I did a certain amount of faking, tho at the time I didn't realize it, c) I had a really poor understanding of the Bible and d) I was spiritually proud, meaning that in my mind I truly believed that I had reached a spiritual level that most Christians hadnt yet.

Once I really began to study the Word properly, I began to see holes in this whole thing. God began to break me down, and we went thru some things that really showed me who God really is, and how gullible I had been. I repented of many things, and renounced the beliefs I held... and left the Charismatic movement.

I believe most in the Charismatic movement are saved. I'm not saying that at all... but I believe many are deceived by it.

Dont let yourself be discouraged by what you saw. You need to get yourself into a true Bible believing church.


 2005/2/14 9:06

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 40

 Re: Worshipping with drunks

wow! Makes me very very grateful to the Lord for our nice quiet little house meetings where the Lord makes us fat on His Word and His Spirit. It still just astounds me that this kind of thing is taking place among the Body. But I know it is. Horror!

You're a much better person than I. I'm afraid had I been in the midst of that, somebody would have had a fight on their hands.

Steve Lindsey

 2005/2/14 16:52Profile

Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC


Best definition of being "Drunk in the Spirit" I've ever heard of was from Ravenhill, who refered to individuals like Jeremiah and such as being drunk in the Spirit. That is, when one is drunk, one doesn't give a flip of what others think about the things they do. They have no concept of the fear of man. They are going to do what they want to do, no matter what anybody else thinks. Being drunk in the Spirit is not simply an experience whereby one wanders around and stumbles and makes some stupid sounds and remarks on a stage. Rather, being drunk in the Spirit, according to brother Ravenhill, is more about being free from the fear of man.

Jimmy H

 2005/2/14 16:57Profile

Joined: 2004/8/14
Posts: 14
Toronto, Canada


Hi Gang.
Personally I'd rather be filled with the Spirit than drunk in the Spirit. Being drunk as it is represented in the church today seems to be more a reproach to the saving work of Jesus. He didn't go to the cross so I can laugh and bark at a Fri. night meeting. In the book of Acts they didn't choose the one who laughed the loudest to take care of the widows and orphans. No, they chose men who were "full of wisdom and the Holy Spirit". They were looking for servants, like Jesus, not Holy Ghost bartenders. I'm sorry, but I've been there, done that, and found it wanting. Just give me Jesus.
In Christ Alone


 2005/2/14 23:10Profile

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Worshipping with drunks

I have only just got around to this thread. What a travesty! Just keep drinking from the fountain head my brother, it will flush all this nonsense out of your system and restore your peace in Him.

There is, of course, no such things as being 'drunk in the Spirit'. Notice how Paul switches not only the noun but the verb...

And [u]be not drunk[/u] with wine, wherein is excess; but [u]be filled[/u] with the Spirit;
(Eph 5:18 KJV)

Being 'filled with the Spirit' will never leave a man incoherent. His every faculty will be alert and ready to serve...
For God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion. (2Ti 1:7 Darby)

Ron Bailey

 2005/2/15 3:18Profile


One of the fruits of the Spirit is ... self control. God will never contradict Himself, and it seems to me that if the Holy Spirit causes one to lose control of oneself, then there is a grave contradiction going on. We are commanded to be sober... physically and spiritually. And that does not contradict the fruit of self control at all.


 2005/2/15 9:48

 Re: Worshipping with drunks

Not "New Wine" - Hard Liquor!
(Eyewitness Account of Spiritual Drunkenness in Toronto 1997)

My wife and I celebrated our 14 years of blissful marriage and our anniversary coincided with a week of "soaking" at "Joel's Bar" at Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (TACF).

People came to get spiritually drunk and drunk they got. We witnessed women crawling out of the sanctuary on their hands and knees because they were to "drunk" to walk upright. Another woman was dragging herself along to the door by her arms because her legs seemed paralyzed (the image was one of a wheelchair bound person who had fallen out of their wheelchair and were attempting to crawl to it).

We saw people spontaneously fall down, the usual uncontrolled laughing, people roaring, making chicken sounds, loud groans and howls. Young children were manifestating all the natural signs of being drunk. 2 pre-teens were brought up on the platform to share the vision they were having of Jesus standing on the stage with John and Carol Arnott. In short the place was "live."

The speaker for the evening (8-1-97) was John Scotland, who has been drunk for the last 3 years non-stop (this is his testimony). He got up to minister (3,000 people were in attendance) and staggered around the stage, told jokes, mumbled, slurred his words and then worked his way up to reading the Bible ("for those of you who are into those kind of things"). When he tried to read the Scripture he would stop and make cackling chicken sounds (I am serious, we ordered the video of this man). In fact, each time he tried to read the Bible strange sounds proceeded from his mouth, which the audience loved. To me this was nothing more than demonic forces making a mockery of the ministry, the Bible, and a person created in the image of God.

When it became minister time I tried to video tape John and Carol Arnott laying hands on folks, I got a few minutes, then I was told to stop. Later on I began to video tape again and got a record of many strange manifestations, which we will make available to people in a few weeks.

The reason they stopped me was simple - they want to control how people see these things. They know if they can present some texts (out of context), have some background music, get some testimonies then it will appear normal. When one simply tapes it in the raw (like it happens) it comes across in a manner they do not like. Nonetheless I think I got some choice shots.

They presented this as a week of getting spiritually drunk and at the bottom on this page I have a link to a teaching regarding this aberration.

Bottom line: We visited TACF. 2 years ago, and now things have gone from bad to worse. There is far less reverence for God than earlier. During Bible reading (what little there was) people walked, talked, bought and sold books, tapes, eat food, etc. The same went on during prayer from the pulpit by the leaders! There was no reverence for God or His Word. Also, the manifestations have increased by a great degree.

Lastly, we noted they kept speaking of this great "baptism of love" how this revival had increased their passion for Jesus and people. . .but they continually spoke harshly of anyone who did not agree with them. I am e-mailing John Arnott about this obvious hypocrisy. They speak of love and yet run down everyone who questions them!

We were very grieved by what we saw and we will go into more detail on a video we are putting together. Do not think this thing is dying down, it is not. They have 4,500 registered for their October "Catch the Fire" conference. Pray like never before.

 2005/2/18 2:20

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