| Re: |
You do admit that suicide is murder right? I am not being dogmatic about the eternal fate of one who commits suicide, but the fate of those who aren't truly trusting their lives to the Lord Jesus. Murder is the taking of a life. Suicide is self-murder. "and he know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in Him" (1 John 3:15).
"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, MURDER, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, back-biters, haters of God, despite full, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmercifull:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (Romans 1:28-32)
I'm not going to be dogmatic and say absolutely that I know for sure everyone who ever committed suicide under the new covenant definitely went to hell, but to use examples from the old covenant of those who killed is not applicable at all whatsoever. And suicide is murder. Period. It's not trusting the Lord Jesus with our lives. It's the ultimate act of mistrust. We take what only God can give and only He should be able to take away. Just some food for thought.
| 2012/7/3 9:12|
| Re: |
Jeff... Jesus said:
Matthew 5:21-26 You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment. But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, You fool! will be liable to the hell of fire."
We have all murdered in our heart. Even as believers we have all murdered in our heart. Just like we have all lusted in our hearts. Thank God for His grace! And He will lead us to repentence, but Jesus main point was that we are ALL guilty of murder and adultry. His point was that without the grace of God none of us would be worthy of His kingdom.
Say I said something on here that got you riled up... and you were angry with me in your heart and had bad thoughts or feelings about me... and you were suddenly wiped out in an accident with no chance to repent... would you stand before God a murderer? Or would His grace toward you be sufficient? Would He hold it against you and send you to hell? Or did He truly save your soul for eternity the day He poured His love out on you the day you were born again?
It's ok to discuss suicide. I find it humorous that all these people who claim in other discussions that they HATE theology are in this dicussion... discussing theology!
But not a single one of us can say with any certainty how GOD feels or thinks about this subject.
| 2012/7/3 9:30|
| Re: |
" All killing cannot be wrong, since David killed regularly, Samson killed regularly, Samuel killed (once), and so forth."
The "kill" as it appears in the ten commandments means murder. This differs radically from killing as in warfare. In war each soldier is equipped to defend himself, or should be. The rules are understood by both sides. If a person gets killed under these circumstances it is killing but not murder as stated in the ten commandments.
Consider this incident:
2 Kings 2:5: Now you also know what Joab the son of Zeruiah did to me, what he did to the two commanders of the armies of Israel, to Abner the son of Ner, and to Amasa the son of Jether, whom he killed; he also shed the blood of war in peace. And he put the blood of war on his belt about his waist, and on his sandals on his feet."
This is David's advice to his son Solomon just before he died. You may want to read about these incidents so you can better understand why David was so adamant about Solomon getting rid of Joab who was David's nephew, Solomon's first cousin.
In the NT the command is thou shalt not murder (Matthew 19:18; Romans 1:29). Jesus took killing to a level not understood by the Jews under the law.
God did not like killing either but he allow it to rid the earth of rebellious people. To do so he used David. However, when the time came to build the temple God told David he could not do it because "he was a bloody man". A person could take this incident and see some wonderful types and shadows here of the NT covenant.
I believe it to be very dangerous to suggest that suicide is forgiven (God forgave all my sins past, present and future) and can be entered into without any serious repercussions. There may be people reading this thread right now who may be contemplating suicide and because of some of the sentiments expressed on here will then believe it is alright to do so and will go do it. Since this is the case I think the mods should delete this entire thread!
| 2012/7/3 9:51||Profile|
| I am in a panic!|
This thread puts me in a panic!
I HAVE IN THE PAST BEEN SUICIDAL AND I PROMISE YOU IT COMES FROM THE DEVIL! MAKE NO MISTAKE! IF YOU GIVE IN TO IT YOU WILL BE SEPARATED FROM GOD FOREVER!
So, am I shouting? You bet I am! Don't do it if you are ever tempted to do so!
| 2012/7/3 10:32||Profile|
| Re: |
Yeah, I know hatred is as murder. My point is not to excuse sin (the fact that hatred is as sin is murder doesn't excuse anything, but makes the responsibility GREATER beyond actions to now thoughts, motives, & intents of the heart).
That has nothing to do with what I discussed. Again, show me ONE example of the Biblically endorsed taking of a life BY A BELIEVER (another's or their own) in the New Testament (under the New Covenant). There isn't one. There's a reason for that. There is a trusting of your lives into the Fathers hands, no matter what comes your way, in the New Covenant. That includes the taking of another's life (even in "defending one's self) and/or suicide. The Lord, the apostles, & early church never "took up arms" against their enemies, nor their own lives when it got tough. Doing so shows a lack of trust in God's Soveriegn care come what may.
| 2012/7/3 10:33|
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I've had the demonic realm send the same tempting whisper in my ear earlier in my walk. Mainly when struggling with a besetting sin that didn't fully go away at conversion (several did instantly, one or two took mortification/sanctification to choke them out). Anyways, demons want you to take your life into your hands for a reason. It's not God's way, by His plan, according to His Gospel, or by the Power of His Spirit. Both defending yourself (taking up arms) & suicide operate by the Satanic Church's motto "Do what thou wilt", not "entrust yourself to Him who judges rightly". I have no confidence, personally, in heaven after suicide.
| 2012/7/3 10:52|
| Re: I am in a panic!|
To dismiss the 6th commandment as not pertaining to self-inflicted death/suicide is to wrest the passage. Rather than reinvent the wheel, I wish to share an excerpt from Dr. David R. Brown:
"Noted Bible scholar Charles Ryrie has an excellent chapter on suicide in his book "You Mean The Bible Teaches That...He says "The sanctity of human life is paramount in the sixth commandment, 'Thou shalt not kill' (Ex. 20:13). Here murder is condemned, and elsewhere in the law every act that endangers human life is condemned, whether the act arises from carelessness (Deut. 22:8), wantonness (Lev. 19:14), hatred, anger, or revenge (Lev. 19:17-18). Human life is sacred, for man was made in the image of God (Gen. 9:6, where also this same sanctity is made the basis for capital punishment). But the commandment has no direct object. It does not say, 'Thou shalt not kill someone' or 'Thou shalt not kill thy fellow man.' It is simply, 'Thou shall not kill." He goes on to quote from Carl Keil and Franz Delitzsch "Thus it is to be concluded that 'the prohibition includes not only the killing of a fellow-man, but the destruction of one's own life, or suicide.'" Simply stated, "Suicide negates God's estimate of life and violates the sixth commandment (Rom. 13:9)."
"The Bible does not mention one single instance of a good man committing suicide" D. L. Moody once said. I checked it out and he is right. Every biblical account of suicide reveals an individual whose lifestyle was not honoring to the Lord. All were living outside of the sphere of accepted behavioral standards of the Lord God.
1. I Samuel 31:3-5 -- King Saul and his armor bearer kill themselves by falling on their swords. Saul was forsaken by the Lord when he turned to witchcraft and forsook following God.
2. II Samuel 17:1-14 & 23 (key 23) -- Ahithophel devises a plan to kill King David. When his plan is rejected he hangs himself.
3. I Kings 16:18-20 -- Zimri, military commander of half the chariots in the army of Israel, plots to overthrow the king of Israel and declare himself king. He kills the king and all the male heirs in the family. When the people found out about what had taken place, they appoint Omri, military commander of the army as king. The army marches on Tirzah and defeats the soldiers loyal to Zimri. When he sees the city is taken he retreated into the royal palace and sets it on fire around him and dies in the flames.
4. Matthew 27:3-5; Acts 1:18 -- Judas, betrayer of the Lord goes out and hangs himself by thrusting himself on a pointed beam, causing his insides to gush out. (end of quote)
As for Samson I do not view his death as suicide. He died by the hand of God. I have had this disagreement with believers in the past, but let us consider that it was not the strength of Samson that brought down the house, it was the power of God. If God does not answer his prayer then he dies in prison. It is a tragic ending to a man who was called to be a deliverer in Israel. When the Philistines plucked out his eyes they plucked out Samson's weakness. Hebrews 11 tells us that Samson died in faith. Therefore Samson cannot be viewed as an excuse to take ones own life.
Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived. (Judges 16:30)
The time would fail to give examples of Christ and Christians that knowingly went to their deaths when they could have chosen life, but this cannot be seen as 'suicide'. Paul was warned repeatedly that trouble (and ultimately death) awaited him. None of those things moved him. Old Testament examples as well documented in Hebrews 11. These people all died in faith. So we have to make a sharp distinction between ones desire to end their own life for their own reasons and what took place in scripture among the 'Samsons', etc. A person that commits suicide is moving in ultimate presumption. No one knows what becomes of them. To knowingly and deliberately risk ones soul with such a foolish act is to buy the lie of Satan and risk eternal damnation.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2012/7/3 10:54||Profile|
Monroe, LA - USA
| Re: |
1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
Here on SI, people make manifest and very obvious whether or not they are approved by the heresies they either denounce or defend! Within all of the different frameworks of theology we either lean toward holiness or hell. We either lean toward a theology and life of continual victory over sin which Jesus came and died to give us or we lean toward a theological stance that makes one feel comfortable that somehow we can continue in sin and grace will abound
to which Paul answers God forbid. (Rom. 6:1-2).
Regardless of thousands of posts on SI and of winning wit matches with hundreds and of having the last word hundreds of times, none of our arguments can save us when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ. MANY who were once servants of God will hear loudly and clearly: And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 25:30)
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
On that day we will be one or the other:
washed in the blood and made victorious over sin by Christ, or
ungodly and sinner.
In case you are being blinded by the heresy that is being vomited forth on the forum, please believe the simple truth of the gospel: 1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
A person who murders himself makes it obvious that he does not have eternal life abiding in him.
| 2012/7/3 11:04||Profile|
East TN (for now)
| Re: |
You do admit that suicide is murder right?
No, I do not admit that.
I cant explain every single suicide but I do believe for the majority of suicides a demon(s) drove them to it; whether it was the demon of oppression, lies, depression and suicide, I dont know; and I hope I have not come across as all knowing for the reasons someone takes their own life. I do know that I was almost driven to it once about 12 yrs ago but for the grace of God speaking into my life; this argument would be about me and my soul.
AND I also would like to state for the record that I am NOT saying that all those who commit suicide are going to heaven; but also for the record I dont know that all those who commit suicide are going straight to hell either; only God is their Judge, not me or anyone else.
Are there any here willing to admit that the Scriptures are not pristinely clear on this matter - suicide? And because the word is not clear, I will not judge another persons soul but believe and pray for mercy. For that I will not apologize for.
| 2012/7/3 11:25||Profile|
| Re: |
If one person reads the posts that excuse suicide and later commits murder on themselves - their blood will GOD require of those who have posted here and their belief has been shown already by the others that it is horrendously false.
If we blame "demons" for anything that we do - where do we draw the line?
I'm shocked at these posts and wasn't ready to read these things.
The Scriptures are very clear about even self-mutalation, nonetheless "murdering anyone - including self".
Only GOD gave permission in the O.T. of when to put someone to death and when someone did that shouldn't have, they paid the price.
If just one person takes their own life because of this abominably false belief that's being espoused here - HE will hold you responsible - but you won't know until you see Him that you were responsible and held responsible as complicite to murder - because you don't know who is reading your posts.
GOD forgive you and praying you will keep quiet on this until you've become more Scripturally literate or hear HIS Voice on this topic. Your posts are promoting excuses for self murder and you will be held accountable.
| 2012/7/3 11:47|