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Trekker
Member



Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Why not Suicide?

Has anyone any thoughts or knowledge on what the Jewish view of suicide has been down through the ages and why suicide was never called a sin or forbidden in the OT? Doesnt it seem strange that it was never once mentioned in any way? In light of the many OT suicides it seems to me that Jewish people do not or did NOT think it a damnable sin. There was the suicide of Ahithophel, of Saul's armorbearer, the kamikazi suicide of Samson, and there was the mass suicide of Jews at the fortress of Masada during the siege of the Romans (A.D 70?).I have been pondering a lot lately as to why God would be silent on such a thing as suicide, particularly in the Old Testament.

Chuck Swindoll once said that Satan is involved in every suicide. This would certainly seem to be the case in the life of Saul and Judas, both servants of satan, as well as many of the suicides of today. And pride often seems to be prevalent in the lives of those people. Does anyone have any input on the subject of suicide in Jewish thought and teaching?Is the Jewish view of suicide identical to the Catholic view? Oddly enough, despite the Catholic view of suicide almost all the suicides i know of personally (and i know of quite a few) were committed by members of Catholic families or those raised Catholic (not necessarily practicing or devout themselves). Anyone have any similar observations?

 2012/7/3 2:23Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7470
Mississippi

 Re: Why not Suicide?

The OT law says "Thou shalt not kill."

Violation of the OT laws required a sacrifice or else they were subject to the death penalty.

Now, how is a suicide victim going to offer a sacrifice for self-murder? He/she is dead - can't do it.

Self-murder is a sin one cannot repent from nor turn away from it. It is final.

Murder is sin regardless who does it to who.

I know one suicide victim and he was not a Catholic.

I do not know what Catholics or Jews think of suicide but I do know what the Scriptures say about murder.


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Sandra Miller

 2012/7/3 2:33Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2662
Nottingham, England

 Re: Why not Suicide?


Genesis 9:5 says "Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning, from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man."

Verse 6 says "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man."

Suicide is murder, as mentioned in the Ten Commandments, given by God, you shall not murder.

What is the difference between murdering someone else or murdering yourself?

As has been said, you can't repent of suicide.

And, if you need to repent...

 2012/7/3 4:15Profile
Trekker
Member



Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re:

QUOTE: "The OT law says "Thou shalt not kill."==GINNYROSE



Yes, that is quoted every time such a subject comes up. But it is insufficient. David killed on a regular basis, and even the prophet Samuel killed (once). So to use that commandment and say that ALL killing is forbidden is wrong.


QUOTE: "Genesis 9:5 says "Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning, from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man."

Verse 6 says "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man."==ENID




Again, same as above argument. All killing cannot be wrong, since David killed regularly, Samson killed regularly, Samuel killed (once), and so forth.

 2012/7/3 7:37Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re: Why not Suicide?

Quote:

I do not know what Catholics or Jews think of suicide but I do know what the Scriptures say about murder.

And...

As has been said, you can't repent of suicide.

And, if you need to repent...


It must be nice to have special knowledge exactly where every suicide goes eternally. You guys make it sound like suicide is the unforgiveable sin but we all know that’s not correct. Suicide is not as black and white as a religious person might think.

Quote:
Trekker wrote:
And pride often seems to be prevalent in the lives of those people. Does anyone have any input on the subject of suicide in Jewish thought and teaching?


I tend to agree with Chuck Swindoll but with more of a twist, I believe that every suicide has a demon involved or several (evil spirits) that drive that person to kill themselves.

So if a person was driven to it by demon or evil spirit(s) then it’s not exactly murder, is it?

God bless and just my two cents!!
Lisa


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Lisa

 2012/7/3 7:49Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2662
Nottingham, England

 Re:


If what the the word of God says isn't good enough for you, then, it's not good enough for you.

 2012/7/3 8:17Profile









 Re:

Quote:
If what the the word of God says isn't good enough for you, then, it's not good enough for you.



Brother Enid... thats a bit unfair. Lysa loves the Word of God. There can be no doubt about that.

Quote:
As has been said, you can't repent of suicide.

And, if you need to repent...



Oh boy... need to be careful with this one! Surely you're not saying that if you die and you happen to have a few sins that you have not confessed and repented of that you will not be saved, are you? If so, then what you are saying is that ultimately you salvation is dependent upon YOU and YOUR WORKS.

Obviously repentence is necessary for salvation, we all understand that. However, when God saves you does He save you only from your sins of the past? Or does He save you and forgive you of all your sins past, present and future?

The fruit of a truly saved man or woman will be a life of repentence! Daily repenting of our sins because we will never reach perfection here in this life.

Suppose we take this logic that if someone commits suicide they cant repent therefore they can not go to heaven. (Of course we are assuming we're talking about someone who professes to be a Christian) Now... apply that logic to the following situation: You are struggling with a sin, or a sinful attitude, or sinful thoughts. You're driving down the road and BOOM... you're blindsided by a drunk. You never saw it coming.

Uh oh... no time to repent! Your goose is cooked. 20 years of walking with the Lord, but you go to hell because you couldnt repent of whatever it was that you were struggling with that day.

Surely you dont believe that.

So how can we say someone who may be dealing with emotional or mental problems that to them seem beyond their control... and in a moment of distress they take their own life... and because they cant repent of that their salvation is null and void?

Someone said "murderers can not see the Kingdom of God." Well, neither can adulterers, but according to Jesus words... we are ALL adulterers. All of us, even after we have been saved have lusted. We have all committed murder in our hearts by the angry thoughts we have had about others. That was His point! Without His GRACE all of us would be guilty. In the flesh we are guilty, but our souls have been set free.

None of us are in a position to judge what happens to someone who confesses to be a believe who takes their own life. Personally I feel a tremendous amount of sympathy for someone who commits suicide. I have an uncle who did that a year ago. (He never was a believer, a little different situation)

If we say that we can do nothing to earn salvation... then the converse of that statement is true: we can do nothing to lose our salvation.

If we say that if we have a sin that we did not repent of and that will keep us out of heaven... we have just adopted the Roman Catholic view of salvation and no longer are speaking of Biblical salvation.

Only 2 more posts left.

Krispy

 2012/7/3 8:30
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re:

Quote:
by enid
If what the the word of God says isn't good enough for you, then, it's not good enough for you.


Enid,

I pray the grace of God be with you (and me) during this conversation.

The fact remains that the word of God is silent on suicide. Verses about murder were provided not about suicide. I beg you to see that we cannot impose our own beliefs about something to a verse (or verses) and thereby CONDEMNING HUNDREDS TO HELL when it’s not plainly written in the Scriptures. *(edited for clarity)

I do hope you know that the word of God is always good enough for me when it is applied correctly.

God bless you,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2012/7/3 8:31Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2662
Nottingham, England

 Re:


End.

 2012/7/3 8:34Profile









 Re:

If a demon drives/entices me to commit adultery, is it now somehow not adultery? Or am I somehow exempt from guilt? Or, if a demon tempts me to steal something and I steal it, am I exempt from guilt? Of course not! demons can have limited influence and can tempt a believer, but can't "make" us do anything. That's like the child eating the cookie they were already told no about by dad, and saying "the devil made me do it." There is personal accountability. You opened a door to the demonic influence, or at the very least, when demonic oppression/attack came, you didn't shut the door in it's face by the Word of God, prayer, and the Spirit of God. Is a True Believer powerless against demons? OF COURSE NOT! We have power in Christ to cast them out of unbelievers and to tell Satan to get behind us.

"When we are tempted....He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear.......but .He is faithful to provide a way of escape..."

"Each man is enticed and dragged away by his own lusts"

As far as David killing people, Samson killing people, Samuel killing, etc. Again, there seems to be a great lack understanding of the differences in the Old Covenenant & the new. David also had more than one wife. Who's making excuses for that today? They also made animal sacrifices. Anyone saying that's OK today?

These things were OT types and shadows of greater "war", greater "murder", and greater "enemies" to come. Now, in the New Covenant, "our enemies are spiritual wickedness in high places", and "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty in God for the pulling down of strongholds". And the only murder recorded in the New Testament ordained by God is the killing of sin, the "putting to death the deeds of the flesh", and the "mortifying of the flesh".

Now, we are not to presume the role of taking anyone's life, but are to "entrust ourselves to Him", to "leave Room for God's wrath, for vengeance is His and He will repay". If the Lord needs to strike down someone (like Annanias & Saphira, those taking the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner, etc.), He will do it Himself, and doesn't need the fleshly intervention of His children. H can use the bloodthirsty heathen to carry it out if He decides.

There is NOT ONE example of a New covenant "murder" or taking ones life into ones own hands by violence. Not one. In fact, when Peter drew the sword (being stuck in his mindset also in the Old Covenant), Jesus rebuked him sharply, told him to put his sword away, and said that he who lives by the sword shall die by it. Jesus entrusted His life to the Father &submitted to the cross, and LAID DOWN HIS LIFE. The apostles got filled with the Holy Spirit and all did the same. The early church did the same. Believers down through the ages have all done the same.

I have studied the Masada mass suicide a bit, and it is esteemed as some great noble thing by many as a source of pride. It was a mass suicide. Period. I'm not judging them, but they obviously hadn't entrusted their lives fully to God, or they wouldn't have taken their own lives. Some people had to kill their own babies and children there. WHAT'S NOBLE ABOUT THAT? And where is the trust in the Lord's care in that? I know the story and I know what was bearing down on them, somI don't judge them harshly, but it is what it is: a mass suicide.

 2012/7/3 8:47





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