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I think that post tribulation view is wrong but I do not call post trib believers heretics.This as you well know is not about a theological debate on tribulation views but a comment on calling people heretics.
As too your 2 points
Trends:The thread said that Persecution is coming SOON.
Most believers whether they believe in post or pre believe we are nearing the end and that the trend regarding sinning is downward.The manouverings in the middle east are just setting the stage to the end.People have seen these trends for 40 years now but that is no evidence to say "persecution is coming soon"
The New Testament:
The new testament doesn't say any where that persecution is specifically coming in 2012 or soon after.This is your claim and I am asking to back it up that all.Persecution is always everywhere in some form big or small.(like the teacher or the pastor mentioned) but that doesn't mean a mass persecution is around the corner later this year.
Jeffmar said that the Spirit of Prophesy told him and I think that is acceptable but we need to know the specific prophesy's and test them.So far all I have heard is the vague God put it on my "Heart" sort of thing.Do we not have prophets in the house?We talk about how we believe in the gifts which I do but anybody can say "bad times" or "good times" are ahead because if we wait long enough we know one of those buses will come along.
My belief is that the idea of a "coming soon persecution to the western church" is based on the wrong things.
We quite rightly look at the church in the west and say what a mess and perhaps we have thought "when is God going to Act?". We have lost our patience and are teaching what seems logical like "trends" but may not be inspired by the Spirit.It looks like a "wild goose chase" to me.
Just because trends are downward and will continue to be downward unless God Acts doesn't mean "Persecution is coming Soon"
Pre tribulation believers get warned by God as well as post tribulation believers as both have the same Spirit.God will speak to both sets of believers and warn them both but the pre tribbers wont realize it is the tribulation thats the difference but they will know trouble is a head.
If you think that their is a soon coming persecution because of your tribulation view then it is not from the Lord unless very importantly the tribulation is later this year or next.
But as far as I can tell you are saying their is a soon coming persecution but it is not the tribulation,
| 2012/7/1 18:34||Profile|
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Brother I did not call pretribbers heretics. I said the teaching was herectical. Perhaps a better word would have been erroneous. Denny Kenniston mentions that the teaching of a pretrib rapture did great harm to the Chinerse church. But this thread has never been about a trib view but a warning of upcoming persecution. Yet you seem to want to force the issue of trib position. You also challenge the idea of upcoming persecution. No one gave dates when persecution would come. Only that it is coming.
Look there are excellent messages that speak of upcoming persecution. Some Greg posted on a thread I started called Recommrmended Sermon Index Messages of Persecution. You listen to them and decide for yourself. If you still reject the idea of upcoming persecution then that is your choice.
Staff I live in a part of America where we have dangerous weather. We have storm events called tornados. These are nasty funnel clouds that bring destruction and death. When tornado warnings are given they are taken quite seriously. No one knows when a tornado will strike. But when the warnings are given we prepare and take shelter. A person may reject the warnings. But they do so to their on peril. It is the same with the persecution warning.
| 2012/7/1 20:18|
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I sent you a link (earlier in this thread or another) to a John Piper article explaining the difference between OT Prophets & NT Prohets/Prophecy. I'm assuming based upon your continual beating the same drum, you never read it? It would help answer your question and explain much of it to you.
| 2012/7/1 23:41|
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deleted for double posting
| 2012/7/2 1:28|
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Hi Staff, how many comment replies does it take for you to convey that you do not accept what is being put forward? Why not disagree and move onto something you do agree with? I get it brother, you have a right to express what you believe or do not and many have taken the time to explain why they believe persecution is coming soon. Do you really believe that one has to be a Prophet to know this?
Are you in danger of working against what God is speaking through His people? Have you considered that Staff? There is certainly testing, and then there is nay saying and there is a huge difference. There is nothing about coming persecution that is not Biblical. I would like you to read these Scriptures and ponder and consider what the Spirit would say to you about them. Consider also that they were given more than 400 years before Jesus came. Consider especially verse 2-4
(1) Behold, I will send My messenger, and He will clear the way before Me. And Jehovah, whom you seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Angel of the Covenant, in whom you delight. Behold, He comes, says Jehovah of Hosts.
(2) But who can endure the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap.
(3) And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver. And He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may be offerers of a food offering in righteousness to Jehovah.
(4) Then the food offering of Judah and Jerusalem shall be pleasing to Jehovah, as in the days of old and as in former years.
(5) And I will come near you to judgment. And I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those who extort from the hired laborer's wages, and turning away the widow, and the orphan, the alien, and not fearing Me, says Jehovah of Hosts.
These are specific prohecies given by a genuine Prophet Staff. Now you do not have to be a Prophet to understand the Scriptures meaning nor do you have to be a Prophet for the Lord to lay that on your heart and tell you that the Lord is at the door and He comes first with a refining fire and like a lauderers soap and who will stand when it comes. And who does it come against?
Today we live in the most Biblicaly illterate generation in over 300 years. They do not have eyes to see nor ears to hear because they do not first and foremeost, know the Word of God. The Word of God is prophecy, its already been written about the last days brother. For God to lay on the hearts of His people that the Word will soon come to pass has zero to do with being a prophet and everything to do with hearing that small still voice. If you are hearing that small still voice, if you are claiming to hear God speak to you on these particualr matters then you should say so plainly, but you have not as yet. The message that I wrote and the messages Greg Gordon has highlighted by men of God, proven men of God, are all saying the same thing and they are saying it to a sleeping Christendom and they are saying it because they have been called to say it.
Mat 16:3 And in the morning, Foul weather today; for the sky is red and gloomy. Hypocrites! You can discern the face of the sky, but you cannot see the signs of the times!
Should you not be able to discern the signs of the times Staff? Are you saying that you have to be a prophet to discern the signs of the times? Are you saying that God will not give His people discernment in the last days? If God is giving His people discernment and they are speaking it forth then praise the Lord for His mercy, for it is certainly undeserved, it is certainly grace, unmeritied favor............bro Frank
| 2012/7/2 1:28|
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hi, i am truly in awe at the mental attitudes that are in the young christians of today. persecutions, tribulations,criticisms... no good reports, the failure of the churches and pastors,demonic doctriness,enemies of the cross...Jesus is the Head of His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against her. do you know that they have a christian church in nigeria that seats a million and is nearly a mile long? did you know about revivals in central and south america and cuba and china. do you know that more people are coming to Christ in the middle east than moslems allah.we should be looking unto Jesus ,the author and finisher of our faith instead of the doom and gloom for He has already defeated satan.everywhere in the old testament mankind ,who faced pending tribulation, were delivered through the tribulation... the red sea, the wilderness , the jordan,the firey furnace , the lions den ... the promise of the valley of the shadow of death . the joy of the Lord is your strength and if you are born of God ... to live is Christ and to die is gain.get involved in the great things that God is doing on the earth today and get out of the negativity that drives people away from the gospel.if you are planted in the ground for preaching the gospel than the earth will produce a tree from your seed that will do greater damage to the enemy.jimp
| 2012/7/2 1:53||Profile|
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Hi Jimp, obviously I can only comment on this thread as I wrote the OP. Not sure who you are reffering to in relation to no good report and mental attitudes and other descriptions. For example jimp, look up the devotioanl section of SI and see a barren wasteland of no comments. I think you are doing a dis-service to men like Wilkerson and Conlon and Ravenhill and Tozer and the list goes on. Not only did they speak about coming persecution and the state of the church ( Wilkerson wept publicly and could barely speak as he spoke of the state of the church) they also highlighted the glory of God and His majesty and His glory and they saw countless people come to Jesus through their ministry. You mention what is going on in China and the middle-east and of course this is going on side by side with persecution and those revivals are mentioned time and again by those who speak of coming persecution. Just because you do not care for the message Jimp, there is no need to attack the messangers lest you find yourself guilty of the very thing you accuse others of is that not correct? Each man serves God according to how he is called. Wilkerson and others had their calling, you had yours and all is under God. Listen to the messages highlighted by Greg Gordon about coming persecution, consider the source of these messages of men clearly sent from God, consider the upcoming conference on this very important subject and see if the Lord will not speak to your heart..............bro Frank
| 2012/7/2 10:00|
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Quote: I agree.
I think you are doing a dis-service to men like Wilkerson and Conlon and Ravenhill and Tozer and the list goes on. Not only did they speak about coming persecution and the state of the church
A brother told me the other day that he had a dream about Carter Conlon not having the spirit to go all the way like David Wilkerson. I was bothered by this brothers dream because he already had a bias towards CC, just because someone is not like David Wilkerson doesn't mean they don't have the anointing of God on their life. We should be very careful how we tread Saints, we need to be slow in speaking or the updated version, slow in typing and quick to listen.
Attacking these great men like this is the same as persecution. We don't need to wait for persecution, it's already here, in the midst of us.
| 2012/7/2 10:23|
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hi, i have spent many an hour in len ravenhills home and he in mine, he ministered every week in my house and i prayed with him often in his.his view was balance with eternal values and although he spoke of the purification of the church by difficulties, he also spoke of walking in the spirit and prospering as this country has for 200 years. he di also say things like prosperity could be our biggest problem but realized that the meals came with the cruise.he was never morbid or negative, yet he never was overboard the other way either. he was always speaking in terms of eternal values.we serve a good ,loving Father who loves us and wants the ultimate best for us. i live and minister in a bible col. setting and hear every day the things i preveously wrote about from folks who think not having a latte today would be persecution.it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance and His mercies endure forever and are new every morning.these wonderful men who have warned us have had this responsibility placed on them by the Holy Spirit and have shared these warnings out of love for the body hoping that we would repent and avoid the consequences of our sins of omission and commision.jimp
| 2012/7/2 11:02||Profile|
| 2012/7/2 11:12|