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ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 In Support of Predestination

My belief in Predestination is based solely upon Scripture.

Let's get right to the point on everyone's mind.

Are there people who are predestined to not be saved.

Is this not unfair?

I will not answer these two question with my views, but rather, with Paul's statements on these 2 questions:

The Apostle Paul addresses those predestined to not be saved:

Rom 9:1-25
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON." And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, " I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. NASU

Of course, That is a big 'What If' Paul uses. I will refrain from speculating on Paul's words.



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Arthur Biele

 2012/6/26 21:18Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re: In Support of Predestination

Eph 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

In love He PREDESTINED us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

13. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a PLEDGE of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. NASU

I want to highlight the greek word 'arrhabon' which iS translated in the NASU as 'pledge'.

Strongs definition is:

arrhabon (ar-hrab-ohn'); of Hebrew origin [OT:6162]; a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Jesus has made the commitment to purchase us. Failure is not an option with Him. Our Saviour lives.


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Arthur Biele

 2012/6/26 22:26Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
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 Re:

NOW, ALLOW ME TO TRANSLATE MY LAST POST INTO ENGLISH :)

Starting at verse 4.

4. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

God knew us, chose us, before the foundation of the world [gr. cosmos], and that we would be Holy and Blameless before Him.

5. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

We were predestined to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to His kind will.

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

And this God FREELY bestowed upon us in Jesus.

7. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

In Jesus we have redemption through His Blood, the forgiveness of our sins, by His rich graces we are redeemed. PLEASE NOTE: WE ARE REDEEMED BY HIS BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF OUR PASCHAL LAMB, JESUS!

8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

It's a gift to us, well planned out before time.

9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him

He revealed this truth of his kind intention through Jesus Christ

10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

According to God's timing and plan etc.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been PREDESTINED according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

We Have Obtained an inheritance, as predestined according to God's will, work, and purpose

12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

The early Christians receiving the fulfillment of the above plans of God first. Then His people, the Jews, will be saved too, per Romans 11.

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

We listened to the message of truth (gospel), and we believed Jesus's message, we were sealed in Jesus with the Holy Spirit Jesus promised us (the indwelling Paraclete, God in me).

14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

14 again: "[from verse 13 - our being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise = which in verse 14] is the pledge (from the greek meaning - part of the purchase property given in advance as security for the rest) of our inheritance until the redemption of the acquisition.

Jesus paid the price for us on the cross, He sealed us as His possession by giving us the indwelling Holy Spirit [WHOM works in us daily], and He will give us our great inheritance when He redeems His acquisition of us at His 2nd coming.


The Holy Spirit in us is Jesus's pledge (Security down payment) of our inheritance until (the time of) the full ransom of Jesus's acquisition of us unto the praise of His glory.


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Arthur Biele

 2012/6/26 22:51Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5484
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 Re:

Quote: "Are there people who are predestined to not be saved. Is this not unfair?"

Some questions to consider:

-- When God created man, did He know that a large majority of His creatures would be eternally miserable?

--If God did not know the result of his creation, is he omniscient?

--If God knew when He created humans that some would be eternally miserable, was it not His will that this should be their fate?

--If God willed that a large majority of his creatures would suffer eternal misery, why does scripture say that He "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth?" (I Tim 2:4)



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Todd

 2012/6/27 7:36Profile









 Re:

Quote:
When God created man, did He know that a large majority of His creatures would be eternally miserable?



Yes, of course.

Quote:
If God did not know the result of his creation, is he omniscient?



Exactly. And He IS omniscient! Thats the point.

Quote:
If God knew when He created humans that some would be eternally miserable, was it not His will that this should be their fate?



When man fell the entire human race fell and was not only judged, but condemned. Thats why Jesus said He did not come into the world to condemn the world. The world was already condemned. It's not that God took all these wonderful human beings and decided to condemn some of them... you have it backwards. No no... He took all of those wretched sinful and condemned human beings and decided to save some.

Think of it like this... say I was walking down the street and there were 6 homeless people begging. I decide to give two of them $5 each to get something to eat. You would think I was a wonderful person. But with God you would accuse Him.

I dont know why God does what He does. According to our thinking if God were a fair God He would save everyone no questions asked. But He doesnt. Who can know the mind of God? Certainly not you or me.

I could try to address I Tim 2:4 in my own limited ability, but I think the following from Ligonier Ministries does it much more justice. This is a very simple explanation, there are plenty of commentaries that address this much more in depth, including Matthew Henry's.

Krispy

++

“This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

- 1 Timothy 2:3-4
Believers are not to be conformed to the world (Rom. 12:2), a principle seen in Paul’s admonition to pray for rulers (1 Tim. 2:1–2). The Empire was moving toward caesar worship, and people had begun to revere the emperor as humanity’s savior. The apostle’s order that Christians pray for the king, besides showing goodwill toward potential foes, subverted Roman values. Praying for the caesar implied that he is not supreme — not one to whom people should pray.

Praying for our leaders, 1 Timothy 2:3–4 explains, is also good because it is in keeping with the desire of “God our Savior,” who wants “all people to be saved.” Since prayer is one of the means through which the Lord effects His redemption (Luke 10:2), we see how intercession conforms to His saving purpose.

But what about Paul’s statement that God wants everyone to be saved? If not all people will be saved (Matt. 25:31–46), do Paul’s words contradict the truth that no purpose of the Lord’s can be thwarted (Job 42:2; Matt. 19:26)? Or must we embrace a universalism in which God will one day redeem hell itself?

Let us consider two answers to these questions. First, if “all people” means everyone without exception, the Lord’s will is not ultimately done when people reject Him. Yet as Reformed teachers have often said, the Greek word translated “all people” can mean all kinds of people — leaders, followers, rich, poor, Jew, Gentile, and so on. This interpretation makes good sense, as Paul lists a certain class of people — rulers — when he tells us to pray for “all people” (1 Tim. 2:1–2). John Calvin says that God’s desire for the salvation of all “means…there is no people and no rank in the world that is excluded from salvation.”

Second, if “all people” refers to every person without exception, then universalism is our conclusion only if God’s desire to save is absolute. But the Lord desires one thing more than the salvation of all — His glory (Isa. 48:11). In one sense, God can truly want all who have ever lived to be saved; however, this desire always defers to His will to glorify Himself, the will in view when the Bible says His will is always done. The Lord is glorified when sin is punished in hell, and so God’s supreme desire is met even when people are not redeemed.

++

 2012/6/27 8:49
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re: The Parables of the Tares

by TMK on 2012/6/27 4:36:30

See TMK's post above.

Quote: "Are there people who are predestined to not be saved. Is this not unfair?"

No, it is not unfair. As Paul stated, as quoted in my initial post above. But the unsaved are the seed of Satan upon the Earth, whom are most hostile to God. And I'm sure there are many things God has not revealed to us. But we are told in Scripture that the day will come when we will understand. For we only know in part, but the day will come when we will know truly who we are.


Here is Jesus answer to your inquiry.

Read Mathew 13: 1-30

Conclusion:

The Tares Explained

Matthew 13: 36 - 40

"Then He [Jesus] left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “ Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age."

So not all people on Earth are of God. Many are from Satan. All of God's seed will be saved. Jesus declared to His father in Heaven that he did not even lose one of His sheep.

Jesus states: John 10: 10 - 18

10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

11 “ I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

Please also note the Predestination in Jesus remarks about His sheep, consisting of Jews and gentiles who hear his voice, recognize His voice, and they follow Him. This is why Jesus gave us the Great Commission, so that people all over the world will hear Jesus voice, that His sheep will respond to and follow Jesus, and have eternal life.

Predestination does not exclude us from having to fullfill the Great Commision and bring the gospel to the whole world. Jesus gave unto us the Great Commision because we are the conduit by which all of God's children will hear Jesus voice, recognize His voice, and come to Him.


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2012/6/27 9:27Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Predestination does not exclude us from having to fullfill the Great Commision and bring the gospel to the whole world. Jesus gave unto us the Great Commision because we are the conduit by which all of God's children will hear Jesus voice, recognize His voice, and come to Him.



Some of the greatest evangelistic revivals of the recent centuries were led by men who were very much reformed. Jonathon Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, etc...

Krispy

 2012/6/27 9:59
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Brethren if any man is lost for eternity it is because man was responsible to believe the gospel of Christ and did not believe and obey. God will not be held responsible for lost humanity.

Also when God saw the wickedness of man being so great, it repented Him that he even made man. God is Love and he never created one human being for the purpose of sending him/her to hell. God desires to save everybody but they must not reject Him who made the only sacrifice to save them.

 2012/6/27 10:06Profile









 Re:

You're absolutely correct... man is responsible for his own demise. Reformed theology teaches exactly that. Thats what Paul taught in Romans, brother. No argument there.

Krispy

 2012/6/27 10:32
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Why are Christians acting just like the World?

The world blames God for everything that is wrong. They blame God for letting all the bad things happen. They sin and do wrong and then blame God for it. Anything evil happening in the world they blame God for it.

Isn’t it sad that there are people who call themselves God’s elect that act in a way just like the world because they blame God for everything also? They blame God for sin. They blame God for everybody not being saved. They blame God for all the things that happen because they say he could stop it if he wanted to. They refuse to believe that God has given man a responsibility that even He cannot violate. They refuse to understand that God cannot keep a man out of hell against his will.

Is there any wonder that there is so much confusion? We know God is not the author of confusion. It is amazing to me how some can say that “God is love” and that “they love God”, and then go right on and accuse God of only desiring to save some and letting the others go to hell believing all the time that God is all powerful. I believe I had rather them say that God is almost all powerful because He wasn’t able to save those that wouldn’t believe in His Son who died for them.

Brethren I believe that God is "all powerful", but he has also given man a will and a responsibility that even He cannot violate against their refusing to believe.

I believe in predestination for all who are in Christ having believed in Him and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

 2012/6/27 10:48Profile





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